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66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

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Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#231

Post by janosdebugs »

armitron wrote: post #191
maccard wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While all the sentences you wrote are technically correct, your point is wrong. > you'll be working right up until our government mandated retirement age As will an american, unless they're going to go without healthcare? Unless you're doing some _wild_ saving, paying for health insurance as you age is going to necessitate working. Health insurance for a couple (assuming you can get it and it covers anything that you…

> As will an american, unless they're going to go without healthcare? Unless you're doing some _wild_ saving, paying for health insurance as you age is going to necessitate working. In the US, most highly-skilled senior engineers will be multi-millionaires in their 40s which means that they can immediately retire and pay out of pocket for private health insurance covering the entire family without even making a dent…

Dunno, I've met several senior engineers whom I would consider highly skilled and while they were well off, it didn't look like they are multi-millionaires. Also, given the trend of firing senior engineers and hiring only juniors lately, I wouldn't count on that trend continuing.

Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#232

Post by ohgodplsno »

armitron wrote: post #191
maccard wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While all the sentences you wrote are technically correct, your point is wrong. > you'll be working right up until our government mandated retirement age As will an american, unless they're going to go without healthcare? Unless you're doing some _wild_ saving, paying for health insurance as you age is going to necessitate working. Health insurance for a couple (assuming you can get it and it covers anything that you…

> As will an american, unless they're going to go without healthcare? Unless you're doing some _wild_ saving, paying for health insurance as you age is going to necessitate working. In the US, most highly-skilled senior engineers will be multi-millionaires in their 40s which means that they can immediately retire and pay out of pocket for private health insurance covering the entire family without even making a dent…

>engineers

Alright, very small proportion of the population

>senior engineers

even smaller

>highly-skilled senior engineers

I cannot even begin to tell you how small of a proportion it is. By the way, you forgot a factor:

>highly-skilled senior engineers that happen to live in the right area (read: SF or NYC) and that are in the right domain

cool cool cool, so a few thousand people per generation can retire comfortably at 40. I'm sure the other 300 million of americans are happy to hear about that. Anything as long as you got yours, right ?

Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#233

Post by xetifafa »

jdthedisciple wrote: post #201
xetifafa wrote: post #76

If anyone is interested in an anecdote from a US American mid level dev living in Germany: I get 30 paid vacation days, 10 ish public holidays and my employer has to pay up to 6 weeks of sick leave a year (after that the public health insurance pays). I make around 75k€ with a 38 hour work week and my take home is roughly 3600€ net. My living expenses are less than 1k (mid sized city, no car, split rent, no kids) so…

Most likely the average dev in the US with your level of skill still makes 2-4x more than you without 2-4x the expenses. Germany may be good to live and get by but not great to actually grow , financially. The whole system is still designed so that you depend on your 800€ gov check in your senior years. Unless your parents already built some wealth it is barely possible to do so in your own lifetime in Germany.

According to levels.fyi (if we assume its unbiased) a median dev income is around $82k in Germany vs $168k in the United States. Let's assume the mean is near that as I can't find any stats on median CoL. Also Let's compare two MCOL(?) hip cities: Portland OR and Leipzig.

$82k is $4.1k take home (with healthcare) as a single in Germany.

$168k is $8.8k take home as a single in Portland.

Let's say monthly expenses are $1.5k as a single in Leipzig. According to numbeo I would need $2.5k for the same standard in Portland.

So in Portland I can save $6.3k or 2.5x my expenses and in Leipzig I can save $2.6k or 1.6x my expenses.

Healthcare is included in the net pay for Leipzig, but not Portland. Employer 401k contributions and other benefits are also not considered.

Other things to consider are safety, unemployment, workers rights, tenant rights, quality of healthcare, cost of elderly care, government retirement plans, PTO, sick leave, maternity and paternity leave, cost of childcare, etc.

Really comes down to what's important to you IMO.

Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#234

Post by larusso »

mutex_man wrote: post #212
larusso wrote: post #53

I‘ve been to the US for a long vacation (4,5 weeks or with traveltime and rest day before and after a whole month). I was able to do this because I have 35 days of vacation (a bonus program from my employer, stay more then x years and your vacation days increase. I have the maximum after 7 years) While I was traveling through south California and Arizona I dreamed how awesome it would be to live here and be able to v…

I get ~28 vacation days per year in the US, and I've only been with my company for 5 years. It's going to heavily depend on your industry and level of experience. Even outside of vacation I also have a pretty relaxed work/life balance. If I want to visit family for 2 weeks but not take a bunch of vacation my boss isn't going to care if I work half days remote the whole time.

Ok nice to hear that it is possible ;) See with the overall generalization one thinks in Europe we are constantly on holiday and in the US the people work 50-60 hours a week and have to count the days until the next vacation.

Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#235

Post by refurb »

morelisp wrote: post #80
refurb wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans with higher incomes likely have very good vacation policies. I get 25 days per year.

25 days a year is not a "very good" vacation policy in Europe, I'd say that would be at least 35 + public holidays.

I’m very happy with 25 days plus another 13 bank holidays. That’s a total of almost 2 months off per year.

And in trade for not getting another 10 days I get 2-3x the compensation as the EU.

That’s a trade I’m happy with.

Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#236

Post by xetifafa »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #213
xetifafa wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't want to give too many details but it's in NRW close to Cologne.

Aren't rents there insane?

Not as bad as Berlin, Munich or Hamburg. I split around 1k€ (warm) for a newly remodeled/renovated 60m2 apartment in a very hip area close to the city center.

Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#237

Post by jdthedisciple »

apexalpha wrote: post #223
jdthedisciple wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meh, $350k is good but comparatively not even too much in some areas of the US, like NY or SF. > There's no one in Europe making that as dev, not even in the Netherlands or Switzerland, not even close! Exactly! Which is ridiculous! And people always bring up "free healthcare!" as a counter but it doesn't really offset this vast discrepancy for someone with a generally healthy lifestyle. How are people in Europe wage-…

It's not that bad. I make roughly €80k in the Netherlands as a medior ethical hacker. I pay 33% in taxes on that income. But that 33% includes healthcare, retirement, school, university, etc... I'm currently enjoying 20 weeks paid time off this year to spend with my newborn. Also I only work 4 days a week, on top of the 5 weeks holiday every year. I'm sure some devs in the US could also set this up for themselves and…

I'm sure it's comfortable and works for most people.

To me there is just a difference between comfortable and great.

> What is there to do except 'wage-slave' like this? We're just born here and make the best of it. :)

To put it concisely: Becoming independent and doing what you truely want to do without having to worry about opportunity cost, monetary compensation, or societal repercussions for "wrongthink".

Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#238

Post by seanmcdirmid »

xetifafa wrote: post #233
jdthedisciple wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most likely the average dev in the US with your level of skill still makes 2-4x more than you without 2-4x the expenses. Germany may be good to live and get by but not great to actually grow , financially. The whole system is still designed so that you depend on your 800€ gov check in your senior years. Unless your parents already built some wealth it is barely possible to do so in your own lifetime in Germany.

According to levels.fyi (if we assume its unbiased) a median dev income is around $82k in Germany vs $168k in the United States. Let's assume the mean is near that as I can't find any stats on median CoL. Also Let's compare two MCOL(?) hip cities: Portland OR and Leipzig. $82k is $4.1k take home (with healthcare) as a single in Germany. $168k is $8.8k take home as a single in Portland. Let's say monthly expenses are…

> Healthcare is included in the net pay for Leipzig, but not Portland.

What devs are getting hired for $162k/year without a decent group plan with only a fairly token employee contribution?

Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#239

Post by pjmlp »

unmole wrote: post #145
zer0tonin wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Americans also are quite delusional about how low the European salaries are. Getting six figures in Europe isn't particularly hard anymore.

Tech salaries in Europe are a joke. The median IT salary in Germany is less than what I'm paid in India. That's in absolute dollar terms. Factor in the difference in cost of living and the disparity becomes comical.

Ah, that is why all TCS, Infosys and Wipro folks I work with, rather get a way to stay in Germany than go back home, what a set of fouls giving up on such salaries.

Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#240

Post by jdthedisciple »

xetifafa wrote: post #233
jdthedisciple wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most likely the average dev in the US with your level of skill still makes 2-4x more than you without 2-4x the expenses. Germany may be good to live and get by but not great to actually grow , financially. The whole system is still designed so that you depend on your 800€ gov check in your senior years. Unless your parents already built some wealth it is barely possible to do so in your own lifetime in Germany.

According to levels.fyi (if we assume its unbiased) a median dev income is around $82k in Germany vs $168k in the United States. Let's assume the mean is near that as I can't find any stats on median CoL. Also Let's compare two MCOL(?) hip cities: Portland OR and Leipzig. $82k is $4.1k take home (with healthcare) as a single in Germany. $168k is $8.8k take home as a single in Portland. Let's say monthly expenses are…

So an extra ~4k take home.

Invest that on the side and you'll have built a fortune within a decade and a half, while your German friend has nothing significant in savings and is still living hand to mouth.

And we haven't even mentioned the differences in career steepness: After a few years it's not 80k vs 160k anymore, but more like 90-100k vs 200k+.

Also if you compare the best places in each country than you are looking at something like 100k vs 300-400k.

Again, I have been trying really hard to see if all the benefits you mention really offset this monetary discrepancy, but it's just too huge.

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