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66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

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Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#141

If anyone is interested in an anecdote from a US American mid level dev living in Germany: I get 30 paid vacation days, 10 ish public holidays and my employer has to pay up to 6 weeks of sick leave a year (after that the public health insurance pays). I make around 75k€ with a 38 hour work week and my take home is roughly 3600€ net. My living expenses are less than 1k (mid sized city, no car, split rent, no kids) so…

That's a very good wage for mid level dev. Which City?

Don't want to give too many details but it's in NRW close to Cologne.

Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#142
I was born and educated in Scotland, worked in the UK for a decade or so, then moved to the US and worked for big tech for 15 years while living in the US and becoming a US citizen. I then chose to move back to Scotland, where I continue to work for the same US big tech company but get paid UK wages with UK employment benefits. So, I've lived significant portions of my life on both sides.

Here in the UK, I get 29 days paid vacation plus ten or so (not sure) public holidays. If I am sick on vacation, I can claim those days as sick days and regain the vacation time. Edit: plus, my contract is for 35 hours per week whereas in the US it was 40.

Regarding money, I am doing the same job that I was doing in the US (same team etc.) but took, what was at the time, a 25% reduction in gross salary. However, by the time you add in the higher taxes, my take home pay (from my salary - my stock awards are the same) is about 40% lower than it was in the US.

Now, I am nearing 50, my corporate career progression is plateauing/settled (by choice, btw) and I have a teenage daughter. A big reason for coming back to Scotland was so she could be educated here and experience European life and culture during her formative years. The other big reason was to have a better work-life balance. I have so much non-work time here, I can actually pursue non-work interests; whereas my US work colleagues seem to always be Slacking and "checking in" while they are on vacation; never seeming to have an identity beyond their job.

I have also lost 13kg (29lb) in weight.

For us techies, the US is the place to get rich, but, in my experience, there are significant lifestyle compromises that you must make in order to do so.

Edit: I was curious about the numbers, so I did a little arithmetic to work out the hourly wage I earned in the US and the hourly wage I earn here in the UK, taking into consideration the vacation days.

My UK gross per hour wage is between 11% and 15% lower than my US salary, depending on the (volatile) exchange rate. Of course, UK tax is much higher (my marginal rate is 49%). So, the difference in take-home pay is more than that.

Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#143
post #121
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? My parents send me the child allowance ("Kindergeld") they received for me for the 6 years I was at university, plus 100 EUR/month. I also had a regular job earning 450 EUR per month, so I had around 700-800 EUR of income per month with a 240 EUR rent. Tuition was 500 EUR per semester, so around 80 EUR/month. I was health insured for free via the insurance of my parents. I had around 300-400 EUR per month for f…

Here is a realistic estimate for Munich. A room costs minimum 350 Euros or may easily cost 1000. Food and going out costs at least 100 Euros or healthy food 200-300. The subway ticket at that time cost 70 per month. There are some additional costs such as health insurance etc. Tuition at that time was 500 per semester for me. Spending a semester abroad as is common is usually far more expensive. And by law your paren…

> And by law your parents have to pay. You are not required to even work.

That may be true in theory. In practice, many parents are in an income range which makes the child not eligible for educational support (Bafög), but which also does not allow supporting the child with 1000 EUR/month. The thought of telling my parents "you are required by law to send me more money, do it!" never occurred to me. They had a house to pay off. Both my mother and father worked more hours per week then I did for university (around 4-5 hours per day, at most, and only during the semester - I did nothing for university for around 4 months during the semester vacations). When my father was the same age as I when I started university, he had already worked for 7 years and paid rent and food money to his parents. So I think paying at least the rent, tuition, and food myself was the least I could do.

Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#144
post #134

If anyone is interested in an anecdote from a US American mid level dev living in Germany: I get 30 paid vacation days, 10 ish public holidays and my employer has to pay up to 6 weeks of sick leave a year (after that the public health insurance pays). I make around 75k€ with a 38 hour work week and my take home is roughly 3600€ net. My living expenses are less than 1k (mid sized city, no car, split rent, no kids) so…

Consecutive sick days. If you got in the icu because of corona for 5 weeks and the month after that because you got into a car crash for 4 weeks the employer has to pay for all the 9 weeks.

Yes, but my employer can fire me (in some cases) if I am sick for more than 30 days in a year.

https://www.wirtschaftsforum.de/tipps/welche-anzahl-an-krank...

Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#145
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reaching 50 years old, never got this American complaint about our salaries. The whole package is what matters. We work to live, not live to work.

I think Americans also are quite delusional about how low the European salaries are. Getting six figures in Europe isn't particularly hard anymore.

Tech salaries in Europe are a joke. The median IT salary in Germany is less than what I'm paid in India. That's in absolute dollar terms. Factor in the difference in cost of living and the disparity becomes comical.

Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#146
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is a realistic estimate for Munich. A room costs minimum 350 Euros or may easily cost 1000. Food and going out costs at least 100 Euros or healthy food 200-300. The subway ticket at that time cost 70 per month. There are some additional costs such as health insurance etc. Tuition at that time was 500 per semester for me. Spending a semester abroad as is common is usually far more expensive. And by law your paren…

Your comparison is completely wrong. Not getting into specifics of rental prices, or student eating/socialising habits, > Tuition at that time was 500 per semester for me This is the number people talk about when they're talking about tuition costs for Americans. Everyone needs shelter and to eat, whether they're a student or an engineer at a FAANG. It's $5-10k fo r community college depending on in or out of state.…

The comment I replied to did not mention tuition costs. The claim was that incomes can be low because there is not cost for letting students study. And the costs are absolutely there.

The fact that some of the best US universities have outrageous tuition is neither new nor surprising nor does it invalidate my claim. I drew no comparison to the US, you are drawing that comparison.

Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#147
Regardless of what you think, in the best path is being an eu citizen, work in us(some high paying job like IT) for 5-10 years, return in eu with huge cash, buy a home, work some more chill years for minimal pension and happily retire. Eu is nice to retire if you are eu citizen and have enough cash(by either working some years in us or remotely for us conpanies but a bit less pay)

Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. I live in a big European city. You basically don't need a car - pretty much anything within the city is reachable in about 30min, and public transit is comfy. Also, I have a public transit ticket that allows me to travel the entire country for a year, which only cost about 1000€. Yes, salaries are lower, but I also don't have to save anything to get my kids through university, or keep emergency funds for hea…

Salaries are so much lower than our American counterparts you'll be working right up until our government mandated retirement age, which is increasing. Our economic growth across the EU is stagnant. These are not things to be celebrated.

We not only have a better life expectancy (6years for men?), we also have a better 'good health' expectancy.

Economic growth is stagnant because energy production and energy import are stagnant. This has little to do with policy. It's 2011 all over again, when we heard all sort of 'southern Europeans are lazy/corrupt' and other shit. I even bought it like a good child. No. Southern Europeans economies used to depend a lot on north sea and Sahara oil and gas, and the reserves (and production) started declining in 2008 and 2010 respectively. Only oil producers, Russian clients and 'nuclear-based' economies managed to avoid crisis.

What is funny now that everybody speak about how Germany economy is in crisis. Well yeah. Same causes, same consequences.

I really don't see how it seems no one gets it. I understand politics wanting to grandstand and explain how growth is caused their policies, but I mean, the data is available. And we have panda. Look at oil import data from Italy then look at growth, from 2010 to 2012,its obvious one of the two is driving the other. Check the other 'PIGS', it's the same.

Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free as in I can get flown to the ER without having to worry to go bankrupt. Strong social system as in you get 60% of your salary if you go unemployed for s year. Im not sure you realize that lots of things you pay are for the chance something doesnt go as planned in your life. Ofc its better to live in the US from a financial standpoint if everything works out and you never get sick or unemployed etc

All US full time positions include health insurance, the insurance included with a good software job is, in my experience, miles and miles better than the one I now get in Scandinavia.

The question is would you keep the job and as consequence the insurance if you get seriously ill?

Re: 66% of Americans say they want extended European-style vacation policies at work

#150
post #4

> While the average American is lucky to get 11 vacation days WHAT? Does that count sick days as well, or is that a myth? Here in Germany, I get 30 vacation days per calendar year, plus any sick days, and thats fairly normal. Edit: Sure the absolute salaries here are lower, but the cost of living is vastly different and the social support structures and healthcare are different, too. That should definitely be kept in…

> I feel vacation days are just a basic requirement for happiness, whereas being rich maybe isnt Not only that, they are a requirement to make a good worker, that consequently make a good company. If you burn out your employees you fall behind schedule pretty quickly, so you have to rely on high turnover, which isn't a great option either. Take the example of Japan With a new law taking effect in April 2019 requiring…

>If you burn out your employees

Burn out in Europe is still omnipresent and rising these days. This includes Germany, the 'chosen child' every proponent points at in these discussions. A few weeks off barely makes a dent in this and vacation days / time off hasn't been that noticeably different since the 70s/80s.

>Japan

That's just a law that pushes them to use it and keeps companies from going 'ah yeah difficult'. It's barely anything when work culture chains employees down to the whims of employers, or risking to be seen as dysfunctional for trying to get out of that 'I belong to my company' trap.

Surprise, that's the same culture that exists in most EU-countries. Just less hardcore.

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