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“Green smoothie cleanse” causing acute oxalate nephropathy

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

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Re: “Green smoothie cleanse” causing acute oxalate nephropathy

#31

Post by retrac »

hombre_fatal wrote: post #25
hackerlight wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm? Oxalates causing less severe damage (kidney stones) is more common than just one woman. If you are a vegan you know you need to go easy on things like raw spinach and almonds.

Could you bring some empirics to the table for normal people having a common problem with oxalates at normal doses without predisposing issues like kidney disease or the ones the woman had in the case study? Does "going easy on oxalates" just mean you have fewer than six spinach smoothies per day? I'm used to these dietary memes cashing out into either trivial claims or nothing burgers.

> Oxalic acid has an oral LDLo (lowest published lethal dose) of 600 mg/kg.[62] It has been reported that the lethal oral dose is 15 to 30 grams.

and

> Frozen commercially available spinach in New Zealand contains 736.6 ± 20.4 mg/100g wet matter (WM) soluble oxalate

while the USDA says about 900 mg per 100 g for American spinach on average.

So roughly 1% of the wet spinach by weight. 1 kilo of high-oxalate spinach probably has 10 - 20 grams of oxalic acid. That's a lot of spinach, but probably chuggable in one day in smoothie format. Far too close to the LD50 estimate for my comfort!

For one large salad, it's unlikely to exceed a couple grams. I'm unsure about the effects of chronic lower dose exposure.

Re: “Green smoothie cleanse” causing acute oxalate nephropathy

#32

Post by ansible »

jacquesm wrote: post #28
jeffbee wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait how easy do I need to go on the almonds? I’ve been eating maybe half a pound a week. Despite your statement I don’t think this knowledge is automatically distributed amongst vegans.

A̶r̶s̶e̶n̶i̶c̶ Cyanide is the thing to watch for I believe. Stay away from bitter almonds, roasted should be fine. You'd have to eat a 25 Kg bag of sweet almonds to get into trouble. Not sure about the cumulative effects though, that might be worth checking into.

I assume this issue is the same with almond milk? I'm almost always buying oatmilk, though.

Re: “Green smoothie cleanse” causing acute oxalate nephropathy

#33

Post by gardenfelder »

KaiserPro wrote: post #16
wirelesspotat wrote: post #9

In the report's keywords it mentions spinach. How much spinach is ok vs too much? Is this issue caused by consuming too much spinach or by consuming spinach in combination with specific foods found in green smoothies?

too much raw spinach, in combination with gastric bypass and prolonged antibiotic use. The bypass probably doesn't help because you are reducing the time exposed to acid/alkali. The antibiotic also kills off any bacteria that would absorb oxalates.

I would agree with that. A lot of research does talk about both antibiotics and gastric bypass surgery. But, that's only a part of the story. My research continues to uncover ways in which oxalates can cause mayhem. Just consider ordinary kidney stones. Calcium Oxalate. Oxalate damage is not limited to that,or to kidney failure through nephropathy. There is a medium.com piece by a fellow who had calcium oxalate crystals in his hearing canal. To get his hearing back, he had to go on a low oxalate diet. There's a pubmed on such situations [1]

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2898392/

Re: “Green smoothie cleanse” causing acute oxalate nephropathy

#34

Post by walnutclosefarm »

jacquesm wrote: post #28
jeffbee wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait how easy do I need to go on the almonds? I’ve been eating maybe half a pound a week. Despite your statement I don’t think this knowledge is automatically distributed amongst vegans.

A̶r̶s̶e̶n̶i̶c̶ Cyanide is the thing to watch for I believe. Stay away from bitter almonds, roasted should be fine. You'd have to eat a 25 Kg bag of sweet almonds to get into trouble. Not sure about the cumulative effects though, that might be worth checking into.

Not Arsenic, but rather bitter almonds contain compounds that the body degrades into cyanide.

Re: “Green smoothie cleanse” causing acute oxalate nephropathy

#35

Post by [deleted] »

jacquesm wrote: post #28
jeffbee wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait how easy do I need to go on the almonds? I’ve been eating maybe half a pound a week. Despite your statement I don’t think this knowledge is automatically distributed amongst vegans.

A̶r̶s̶e̶n̶i̶c̶ Cyanide is the thing to watch for I believe. Stay away from bitter almonds, roasted should be fine. You'd have to eat a 25 Kg bag of sweet almonds to get into trouble. Not sure about the cumulative effects though, that might be worth checking into.

[deleted]

Re: “Green smoothie cleanse” causing acute oxalate nephropathy

#36

Post by hombre_fatal »

retrac wrote: post #31
hombre_fatal wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you bring some empirics to the table for normal people having a common problem with oxalates at normal doses without predisposing issues like kidney disease or the ones the woman had in the case study? Does "going easy on oxalates" just mean you have fewer than six spinach smoothies per day? I'm used to these dietary memes cashing out into either trivial claims or nothing burgers.

> Oxalic acid has an oral LDLo (lowest published lethal dose) of 600 mg/kg.[62] It has been reported that the lethal oral dose is 15 to 30 grams. and > Frozen commercially available spinach in New Zealand contains 736.6 ± 20.4 mg/100g wet matter (WM) soluble oxalate while the USDA says about 900 mg per 100 g for American spinach on average. So roughly 1% of the wet spinach by weight. 1 kilo of high-oxalate spinach pr…

This is what I mean, though. How many people regurgitating "Be sure to watch out for oxalates!" know that we're talking about thousands of grams of spinach?

Looking it up, people generally eat 50-200mg of oxalates per day with 1000mg being the outlier high end.

Eat your spinach. If you're worried, then cook it.

Re: “Green smoothie cleanse” causing acute oxalate nephropathy

#37

Post by DennisP »

jeffbee wrote: post #26
hackerlight wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm? Oxalates causing less severe damage (kidney stones) is more common than just one woman. If you are a vegan you know you need to go easy on things like raw spinach and almonds.

Wait how easy do I need to go on the almonds? I’ve been eating maybe half a pound a week. Despite your statement I don’t think this knowledge is automatically distributed amongst vegans.

Almonds are one of the highest-oxalate foods but I think generally it's fine unless you're prone to calcium oxalate kidney stones. But most people find out they're prone when they get their first stone.

I've gotten two and don't recommend. Things that help, short of the sort of restrictions I'm stuck with: drink lots of water with high-oxalate foods, and eat foods high in calcium with them. The calcium binds with the oxalate in your guts instead of your kidneys and passes right out. Some people dissolve a calcium pill in the water they boil spinach in.

They can see tiny stones in your kidneys with a scan so it's possible to check before you get a real problem, though I don't know if they would without any symptoms.

Re: “Green smoothie cleanse” causing acute oxalate nephropathy

#38

Post by msrenee »

ceedan wrote: post #30
DebtDeflation wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's like the idea that getting a massage releases all the toxins in your body and you need to drink water after to flush them out. That's what they always tell me after I get one. I have to restrain laughter.

Even though the toxins myth is incorrect, drinking lots of water after is a good idea. A deep tissue massage can cause mild rhabdomyolysis, which is where broken down cells (from the massage) get dumped into the blood. Water will help dilute urine while this occurs. Many massage therapists probably do think that there are harmful toxins get released, though.

I suppose the broken down blood cells would be the toxins at that point. Blinds sows and nuts... sometimes one finds the other.

Re: “Green smoothie cleanse” causing acute oxalate nephropathy

#40

Post by DennisP »

hombre_fatal wrote: post #36
retrac wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Oxalic acid has an oral LDLo (lowest published lethal dose) of 600 mg/kg.[62] It has been reported that the lethal oral dose is 15 to 30 grams. and > Frozen commercially available spinach in New Zealand contains 736.6 ± 20.4 mg/100g wet matter (WM) soluble oxalate while the USDA says about 900 mg per 100 g for American spinach on average. So roughly 1% of the wet spinach by weight. 1 kilo of high-oxalate spinach pr…

This is what I mean, though. How many people regurgitating "Be sure to watch out for oxalates!" know that we're talking about thousands of grams of spinach? Looking it up, people generally eat 50-200mg of oxalates per day with 1000mg being the outlier high end. Eat your spinach. If you're worried, then cook it.

Well there's the dose that kills you, but there's also the dose that over time gives you kidney stones, if you're prone to that.
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