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Beyond introvert vs. extrovert

vipshek.com

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Re: Beyond introvert vs. extrovert

#71

Post by elliottinvent »

0xfae wrote: post #56
elliottinvent wrote: post #22

It was recently explained to me: Introverts charge their battery in solitude and discharge it socialising. Extroverts the opposite.

The author talks about how he dislikes this characterization exactly because it's so binary and doesn't seem to be accurate for most people who fall into the "ambivert" center of the bell curve. The whole article is a beautiful breakdown of how social interaction is much more multi-faceted than this. You should read it.

Admittedly I didn’t get that [1] far, thanks for pointing it out. I read the first half but he lost me at conversational dynamics (I mainly come here for the comments).

The battery analogy was a good way for me to understand my own experience and seemed like progress from the traditional definitions of introvert and extrovert.

1. “Balance not batteries” https://www.vipshek.com/blog/interaction#balance-not-batteri...

Re: Beyond introvert vs. extrovert

#72

Post by tayo42 »

stronglikedan wrote: post #42
pydry wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>introverts find interactions with other “draining” I'm pretty sure this is bullshit. Level of drain = lack of trust in that person X overall level of anxiety If you're highly anxious and socializing with people you dont trust (strangers, acquaintances) then the experience will be stressful and draining. Ive met many self declared introverts who have no problem socializing for long periods in small groups with people…

> introverts find interactions with other “draining” > I'm pretty sure this is bullshit. As an introvert, it's spot on. I have no problems socializing with people, whether I trust them or not. I spend long periods (e.g., days camping) with groups that I trust. I enjoy all of it in the moment. I don't have anxiety. It's all still draining, and I need to spend days alone to recharge after days of socializing, enjoyable…

if you went camping on your own, you dont think you still need to recharge?

Re: Beyond introvert vs. extrovert

#73

Post by NickNaraghi »

rqtwteye wrote: post #26

I never understand why people (especially in the US) have a desire to split everything into two opposing sides. Liberal/conservative, introvert/extrovert and many others. I think it's pretty obvious that most (all?) people are on a spectrum of many dimensions and can't be categorized that easily. These labels can give useful hints but there is way more detail to look at.

May well be a function of chronic stress. So many people are constantly in fight or flight (sympathetic nervous system) that narrows focus and decreases broad-range / spectrum-based thinking. Makes sense that many people would default their worldview to black and white.

Re: Beyond introvert vs. extrovert

#74

Post by dosman33 »

The author tries to better understand introversion but focuses on slicing the pie in the wrong dimensions. There are underlying issues that cause people to swing between introversion and extroversion. When those underlying conditions change that can shift a person's place on the spectrum.

If you are some flavor of neuro-divergent with any awareness of yourself then you realize that you need to moderate some of your own annoying behaviors to fit in better with those you are currently in the presence of. Doing this is draining when you are around "normies", even if you like these peoples company. It's also likely that you only moderate certain behaviors around certain people and again, the degree with which you have to moderate yourself can affect how drained you are over time changing the duration you can withstand others company.

When you detect that you are around similar neuro-divergents a person can relax and just be themselves. The lack of drain on a person in this condition can swing an introvert into a full-on extrovert. Anyone who spends time at a makerspace or hackerspace probably understands this. It can be fun watching new people show up who usually are introverts and then they slowly shift their personality since they can safely be themselves and come out of their shells.

Again, it's the underlying reasons driving a persons introversion or extroversion. When those reasons shift then the personality shifts as well. This is not directly correlated to crowd size, but it's a given that the larger the crowd the less safe it is for someone to be themselves if they are neuro-divergent in any dimension. Only people who are "naturally normal" can safely be themselves 100% of the time in large crowds and not be worn down by the experience.

Re: Beyond introvert vs. extrovert

#75

Post by tayo42 »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #12
sublinear wrote: post #5

I don't think the dichotomy is a bad rule of thumb to help understand someone, but it's certainly not their identity. I've come to find that it's down to the person's experience with and resulting preference for crowds and individuals. It's nurture, not nature. I used to be very introverted until I started living on my own as an adult and had shit to do and wanted things in life. I've also seen extroverts that mellow…

Agreed totally and Brene Brown has done great work on this topic - along with the whole Emotionally Focused Therapy movement. My MBTI would reliably give me INTJ from ages 16-37 Now I reliably test as ENFP What changed was my relationship with myself, and society, after coming to some hard realizations about my childhood and decades of trauma. I’ve seen similar changes in others, and I watch as (mostly) extroverted b…

ive kind of agree with your conclusion, though trauma makes it sound intense. i guess im kind of quiet, reservered "introverted", people always tell me how they eventually come out of their shell or w/e and one day i will. seems like people are always changing. i think anxiety and stuff has more to do with peoples social interactions

Re: Beyond introvert vs. extrovert

#76

Post by stronglikedan »

tayo42 wrote: post #72
stronglikedan wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> introverts find interactions with other “draining” > I'm pretty sure this is bullshit. As an introvert, it's spot on. I have no problems socializing with people, whether I trust them or not. I spend long periods (e.g., days camping) with groups that I trust. I enjoy all of it in the moment. I don't have anxiety. It's all still draining, and I need to spend days alone to recharge after days of socializing, enjoyable…

if you went camping on your own, you dont think you still need to recharge?

No, I do that to recharge.

Re: Beyond introvert vs. extrovert

#77

Post by a_and »

BeetleB wrote: post #14
akhayam wrote: post #9

Introvert and extrovert is the most widely misunderstood thing I have seen at work and in personal life. This article also doesn’t do justice to the nuance that introverts find interactions with other “draining” … but it’s not necessary that they suck at it. I feel this way: having led teams of hundreds of people, I know I can have deep, meaningful and long conversations… but I don’t find them a source of joy. I enco…

> I know I can have deep, meaningful and long conversations… but I don’t find them a source of joy. Sorry to add to the flames, but many (most?) introverts generally do find joy in deep, meaningful long conversations. It's the small talk they tend to dislike. The problem is trying to shoehorn everything into introvert vs extrovert. The reality is it's a vector. Small talk vs meaningful conversations is an axis differ…

To further reaffirm your division between depth of conversation and intro- and extroversion, I enjoy small talk and deep conversation and I find both a source of joy.

Both, however, do drain me.

Re: Beyond introvert vs. extrovert

#78

Post by dosman33 »

msoad wrote: post #2

I wonder if it's even worth trying to define a person's personality? I've been following this research for a while now. Almost all the studies I've seen have substantial flaws in their scientific methodology, such as small sample sizes and selection bias, among other issues. Don't even get me started on the replication crisis in this field. Regarding theories like Jung's introversion and extraversion or the subsequen…

I got a sigh of relief when I finally discovered that Myers-Briggs is partly broken. It's designed to not offend anyone by avoiding measuring neuroticism so it's "work-safe". I had been struggling to understand how people were able to understand personality defects of out of the Myers-Briggs system and then eventually it became clear that it doesn't do this, it avoids measuring neuroticism, and worse than that it's on shaky ground because it does a poor job of typing people anyway because a persons personality can "shift" around over time. I'm still new to the Big Five though, I've only skimmed the surface of it, but at least it measures neuroticism and should plausibly give you better insight.

Re: Beyond introvert vs. extrovert

#79

Post by prewett »

sublinear wrote: post #65
leonhard wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any advice on how to develop such skills in charm and charisma?

I'm not sure if this is sarcastic or not since my reply went a bit sideways. I just felt it would benefit others more to hear my perspective. Anyway, the social game is to just filter noise and find the signal you want. When you look at all the self help books on this, they're all very scholastic and merely teach techniques that sour once they're well known. A famous one is repeating someone's name back to them. I ca…

I've met people like this, and I don't think that is charisma.

I think a better description of charisma is enjoying people. The people I think have the most "charisma" are the ones that always seem glad to see whoever it is, and they seem be like this for everyone. Kind of like a (pet) dog: they seem to think every new person is going to be an absolutely wonderful experience. Whereas there are some people I enjoy and others that I don't or am neutral about. I'm more like a cat: well, I might enjoy you, but we'll see about that.

Re: Beyond introvert vs. extrovert

#80

Post by kstrauser »

cole-k wrote: post #67
kstrauser wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I trust your sincerity, but our experiences couldn't be more different. First, my parents taught me, TYVM. I'm competent, and confident, in social settings. I know what's expected of me and how to do it. It's still exhausting, though. Honestly, the rest of your comment sounds more like you were always an extrovert but with social anxiety, and you got over it. I've never had social anxiety. Again, I can do all the thi…

Could you describe what it feels like to have your emotional batteries empty? I'm trying to imagine how I would feel if I were in your shoes trying to woo customers. I think the negative feelings I would have afterwards would be forms of anxiety: perhaps I'm worried I didn't present myself well, I'm thinking about a blunder I made, I have to recover because there was one guy giving me a hard time and making it diffic…

First, I wouldn't say I feel none of those things. I'm certainly aware of when I've made a misstep, but probably more than anyone else is.[1] I have what I think is the expected, rational amount of anxiety: I don't want to mess this up because I want to help our company close a deal. That's 99% of it, though. I'm not so much worried about making myself look bad.

Second, your analogy of a concert? Spot on! Yes, that's exactly what it's like for me. The way I've felt after being on a literal stage is the same as I've felt after leaving a figurative one: "Whew, nailed it! I'm glad that's done! Now let's go play some video games for a while."

[1] Someone asked me if I remembered every time my colleagues said something awkward. No, of course not. Well, that's how much they think about the mistakes that I've made. I take comfort in that.

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