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Beyond introvert vs. extrovert

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Re: Beyond introvert vs. extrovert

#31

I never understand why people (especially in the US) have a desire to split everything into two opposing sides. Liberal/conservative, introvert/extrovert and many others. I think it's pretty obvious that most (all?) people are on a spectrum of many dimensions and can't be categorized that easily. These labels can give useful hints but there is way more detail to look at.

Two sides is the most stable form of competition, it's why there are very few sports that have more than two teams. (Card games, maybe.) A few years ago I saw a great essay/blog post/paper/something that made this point really elegantly, about how conflicts seem to naturally resolve into two sides, but I haven't managed to find it again.

Re: Beyond introvert vs. extrovert

#32
> Introverts, extroverts... ambiverts??

I consider myself an ambivert, swinging between introvert and extrovert all the time. The thing is: you are going to have to attend social events often against your will if you're introvert-leaning (weddings, funerals, christenings, bar mitzvahs, etc).

What I've learned over the years is the more you know how the world works, the less you want to be engaged in it (Big Pharma, Big Tech, Big Military, Big Anything). It's all so tiresome.

One of the things all mature adults need to learn ASAP is how to retain good friendships over time. It's a whole art-form. Anyone that can give me a 'belly laugh' and I can retain friendship over more than five years is worth keeping.

Re: Beyond introvert vs. extrovert

#33

I never understand why people (especially in the US) have a desire to split everything into two opposing sides. Liberal/conservative, introvert/extrovert and many others. I think it's pretty obvious that most (all?) people are on a spectrum of many dimensions and can't be categorized that easily. These labels can give useful hints but there is way more detail to look at.

[deleted]

Re: Beyond introvert vs. extrovert

#34

I never understand why people (especially in the US) have a desire to split everything into two opposing sides. Liberal/conservative, introvert/extrovert and many others. I think it's pretty obvious that most (all?) people are on a spectrum of many dimensions and can't be categorized that easily. These labels can give useful hints but there is way more detail to look at.

Because it's lazy, and most people don't care enough about any issue to have nuisanced thoughts about a topic. And If they ever did any conversation would break down to A or B. Plus its easier to sell to and manipulate money from both sides.

I try to have conversation about complex issues all the time and those conversations never advance past basic talking points that any person who spent time actually looking into any topic would not reduce down to a binary answer.

Half the people I talk with think I'm super liberal and the other half think Im super conservative and it stems usually from the first interaction Ive had with people where Ive tried to advance a topic to beyond repeating the same lame talking points, but it really never gets past first base.

Re: Beyond introvert vs. extrovert

#35

I never understand why people (especially in the US) have a desire to split everything into two opposing sides. Liberal/conservative, introvert/extrovert and many others. I think it's pretty obvious that most (all?) people are on a spectrum of many dimensions and can't be categorized that easily. These labels can give useful hints but there is way more detail to look at.

It makes it incredibly easy to shut your brain down and just go along with what your "side" "expects of you".

No thinking required. Your side is the "correct" one and so you have moral superiority.

Re: Beyond introvert vs. extrovert

#36

I don't think the dichotomy is a bad rule of thumb to help understand someone, but it's certainly not their identity. I've come to find that it's down to the person's experience with and resulting preference for crowds and individuals. It's nurture, not nature. I used to be very introverted until I started living on my own as an adult and had shit to do and wanted things in life. I've also seen extroverts that mellow…

Despite claiming to have been one, you don't seem to understand what an introvert is. I'm a functional adult. I have a wife and kids, friends, and a good job. I can speak in public if needed, although I'd prefer not to. I don't have trouble meeting new people, talking to them, and getting to know them. I'm not shy, but I am an introvert. Being in crowds of people I'm expected to interact with on a personal level drai…

> They both raised me, and they both stressed the importance of good social graces.

No offense intended. Parents often tell, sometimes show, but rarely teach their kids much. Teaching isn't easy.

My original point was that so much of this is also in the hands of the person, not your parents or society. Nurture isn't all external. I had a similar relationship with my parents.

> But if there's a hell, my corner of it looks like a cocktail party where I'm expected to mingle with everyone and never get a moment to myself.

That sounds to me like a lack of motivation, not introversion. I feel like you just don't see what's in it for you. If you were in sales, you would see that as an opportunity. Turning on charisma and charm is a skilled and conscious effort to delight people in subtle ways. Internally it's all about you, but externally it's all about them. Learning that dynamic requires experience. The only part that comes natural is the curiosity to develop a skill. Anyone can find joy in what essentially becomes a game when they understand it.

> The difference is that after my dad's social butterfly antics, he was happy and fully of energy

Yeah because he was satisfied with his performance. It's an interesting high. You should try it. It's worth pointing out I'm saying this as a software engineer from a small and not so well off family and only having a few friends growing up.

Re: Beyond introvert vs. extrovert

#37
post #31

I never understand why people (especially in the US) have a desire to split everything into two opposing sides. Liberal/conservative, introvert/extrovert and many others. I think it's pretty obvious that most (all?) people are on a spectrum of many dimensions and can't be categorized that easily. These labels can give useful hints but there is way more detail to look at.

Two sides is the most stable form of competition, it's why there are very few sports that have more than two teams. (Card games, maybe.) A few years ago I saw a great essay/blog post/paper/something that made this point really elegantly, about how conflicts seem to naturally resolve into two sides, but I haven't managed to find it again.

It's pretty standard game theory.

If there are 3 teams, and one team starts to gain an advantage, the other two are highly incentivized to join forces to defeat the larger one.

Unless you design systems to allow smaller teams/parties/groups to flourish, most competitions will devolve into two sides. In voting this would be things like ranked choice or approval voting, rather than single vote "first past the post".

Re: Beyond introvert vs. extrovert

#38
post #9

Introvert and extrovert is the most widely misunderstood thing I have seen at work and in personal life. This article also doesn’t do justice to the nuance that introverts find interactions with other “draining” … but it’s not necessary that they suck at it. I feel this way: having led teams of hundreds of people, I know I can have deep, meaningful and long conversations… but I don’t find them a source of joy. I enco…

>introverts find interactions with other “draining”

I'm pretty sure this is bullshit.

Level of drain = lack of trust in that person X overall level of anxiety

If you're highly anxious and socializing with people you dont trust (strangers, acquaintances) then the experience will be stressful and draining.

Ive met many self declared introverts who have no problem socializing for long periods in small groups with people they trust absolutely.

Ditto self declared extroverts who are "socially performing" in a critical sitation where they will be judged can't help but find that experience draining.

Re: Beyond introvert vs. extrovert

#39
post #38
post #9

Introvert and extrovert is the most widely misunderstood thing I have seen at work and in personal life. This article also doesn’t do justice to the nuance that introverts find interactions with other “draining” … but it’s not necessary that they suck at it. I feel this way: having led teams of hundreds of people, I know I can have deep, meaningful and long conversations… but I don’t find them a source of joy. I enco…

>introverts find interactions with other “draining” I'm pretty sure this is bullshit. Level of drain = lack of trust in that person X overall level of anxiety If you're highly anxious and socializing with people you dont trust (strangers, acquaintances) then the experience will be stressful and draining. Ive met many self declared introverts who have no problem socializing for long periods in small groups with people…

Well, no. I guess if you don’t know then you don’t know.

As an anecdotal personal example. I love my wife and kids dearly. I trust them, and feel no anxiety being around them. Yet it’s draining. Now they’re gone for a few days, and I feel very good being finally alone for a few days.

Likewise I enjoy getting together with friends and family. I’ve also learned to be sociable. But it’s draining. After a day of having to interact with people I really, really, really cherish being alone for a few hours with my own thoughts, and preferably silence.

We’re different like that, people in general, I mean.

Re: Beyond introvert vs. extrovert

#40

I never understand why people (especially in the US) have a desire to split everything into two opposing sides. Liberal/conservative, introvert/extrovert and many others. I think it's pretty obvious that most (all?) people are on a spectrum of many dimensions and can't be categorized that easily. These labels can give useful hints but there is way more detail to look at.

Because it's lazy, and most people don't care enough about any issue to have nuisanced thoughts about a topic. And If they ever did any conversation would break down to A or B. Plus its easier to sell to and manipulate money from both sides. I try to have conversation about complex issues all the time and those conversations never advance past basic talking points that any person who spent time actually looking into…

People generally don't like to think deeply about things. I get it. It's uncomfortable and emotionally draining. It really requires attention and focus. So most people don't practice it and don't get good at it and simply don't like it. And they sometimes their approach might even be right. Since, you know... A lot of the things you think about or talk about don't _really_ matter.

So you might as well talk about more trivial but lighter things.

I know that I really love to deep dive into things and pick things apart. But my girlfriend hates it when I get like that, so I learned to understand her point as well.

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