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Debris found came from missing Titan sub, says friend of passengers

bbc.com

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Re: Debris found came from missing Titan sub, says friend of passengers

#471

Post by bambax »

Hamuko wrote: post #231
mcguire wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's also on record as saying things like, " It's obscenely safe because they have all these regulations. But it also hasn't innovated or grown — because they have all these regulations. " ( https://www.insider.com/titan-submarine-ceo-complained-about... )

He seemed especially proud about combining titanium and carbon fibre against the advice of others, which seems to now have been in a pretty active role in the demise of the Titan. > "I'd like to be remembered as an innovator. I think it was General MacArthur who said "you're remembered for the rules you break." And I've broken some rules to make this. I think I've broken them with logic and good engineering behind me…

James Cameron is extremely critical of the design of the sub, and of Rush's attitude [0]. He says that carbon fiber was a very poor choice and that it had been known for a very long time, and that "deep submerged diving is a mature art".

If you think you're going to reinvent the wheel and bypass regulatory bodies and ignore subject experts, and move fast and break things, you're delusional.

Any baby can break things; any toddler can break rules. What's hard is to discover new rules, make things that don't break.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rThZLhNF_xg

Re: Debris found came from missing Titan sub, says friend of passengers

#472

Post by raldi »

hawk_ wrote: post #456
raldi wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Same reason that, even setting aside basic humanitarian ethics, it made sense for fire departments from all over America to send their crews to help out after 9/11 even though the victims didn't fund them; the experience is well worth the expense.

Which of the victims asked those planes to be sent their way?

I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

Re: Debris found came from missing Titan sub, says friend of passengers

#473

Post by j-a-a-p »

elp wrote: post #56
ak_111 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it more likely that it immediately imploded rather than after a few days? The latter is more probable to me as it has never been tested under water for more than a few hours at a stretch. This will also be consistent with your banging hypothesis which was only heard after a day or two when it got lost. And also with the fact that no immediate sound disturbance was registered with the controlling ship. I of cou…

If the stories about some parts only being certified to 1.3km instead of 4km are true then it was probably operating closer to the yield point than ideal. My guess is that metal fatigue started to become an issue and it failed too quickly for anyone to react. If the were too cheap to design and build it properly then they were too cheap to check for wear and tear properly.

Fatigue occurs after oscillating stress levels (far) below the strength of the material. So - stuff will break under low stress, if you apply it often enough. It must oscillate, otherwise it will never break. Some material, like aluminium, have very low minimum thresholds.

A sub is subjected to static stress mostly. Quite a lot actually at these depths. And having it certified for 1.3 km hints to over stressing.

Re: Debris found came from missing Titan sub, says friend of passengers

#475

Post by saalweachter »

vsareto wrote: post #271
hawk_ wrote: post #206

I am curious how we (the society) justify the shared costs incurred in searching for people involved in such a reckless mission.

Real-world training for the newbies, exercise for the journeymen, and teaching moments for the experts. That alone is worth my tax dollars for keeping a robust search and rescue force. At least some of the CEO's estate should go to paying for it, but pay out to victims' families first.

Besides any sort of altruism, there's also fame-seeking or marketing to consider; pulling off a high-profile rescue puts you and your company's name in the news, and makes people think of you as a business that can solve other difficult problems.

Re: Debris found came from missing Titan sub, says friend of passengers

#476

Post by oasisbob »

bambax wrote: post #425
seattle_anon wrote: post #166

Stockton Rush (OceanGate's CEO) was known in the Seattle tech community [0] My understanding (very much not first hand) is that he was seen as an expert in the specific engineering disciplines necessary to safely build and operate deep sea submersibles like Titan. He was also apparently a father to members of the Seattle tech community, who are no doubt grieving at the moment. Please remember that, for some members o…

Good video. Some excerpts: "If you're not breaking things, you're not innovating. If you're operating in a known environment as most submersible manufacturers do, they don't break things." (8:49) "Our rule is we risk capital, we don't risk people." (9:56) "We used the same prepreg that's used on the 787." (11:15) And my favorite: "When you're outside the box, it's really hard to tell how far outside the box you reall…

> name dropping that doesn't have anything to do with the subject matter

This is a good point.

However, it's probably worth pointing out that in the past few decades -- at least here in the PNW -- carbon fiber availability to the hobbiest and small producer has been spotty.

I'd refer to Boeing and being the same 787 carbon fiber for my personal projects, but that's just because they're made from Boeing offcuts donated to a local University. At the time (ca 2006), even bare weave was hard to obtain from private suppliers.

Its feasible that Rush may have had help from Boeing sourcing his material, which puts comments like that in a different light.

Re: Debris found came from missing Titan sub, says friend of passengers

#477

Post by isbvhodnvemrwvn »

nicce wrote: post #454
belorn wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would not read too much into it. Media coverage in this context is mostly about how sensentional and novel the news is. People get lost at sea all the time, in particularly in fishing and shipping industry. The average person is very similar to those people and yet such events dont generally create international news.

It is less about the media but more about the response of officials. How many boats were send to look for a single submarine? All the way from the France? When they could have been sent to Mediterranean sea as well.

Why would you send specialized submarine search and recovery ships to Mediterranean? If makes zero sense, they serve very different purpose.

Re: Debris found came from missing Titan sub, says friend of passengers

#478

Post by enachtry »

stef25 wrote: post #422

Anyone know what happens to the body when suddenly exposed to a biblical amount of pressure? I'm morbidly curious about what state the bodies would be in.

I'm not a mechanical engineer but I imagine there's not much recognizable left out of their bodies. The carbon fiber hull is said to have failed catastrophically in an instant shattering to pieces. Water hammered in from all sides with ~400 kg of force applied on every square cm of their bodies + extreme shearing effects. This means they were turned into organic goo in an instant as if passed through a blender. I don't think there's much left of them except for small pieces of bones with a little organic tissue barely hanging on.

Re: Debris found came from missing Titan sub, says friend of passengers

#479

Post by InexSquirrel »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #387
Certhas wrote: post #187

It is notable how much news-coverage this received (for understandable reasons [1]) relative to the almost simultaneous disaster in the Mediterranean [2], where a shipwreck killed hundreds of people. [1] What springs to mind: Dramatic search action well suited for live blog coverage; psychological impact of the idea of people stranded in a submarine for days; And of course the average person here is probably a lot cl…

> than to taking a refugee boat across the Mediterranean. A migrants boat. Most of the people crossing the Med into Europe are economic migrants but in the past decade it has become known that claiming asylum on arrival (or at least if caught) is a good strategy so many do.

Interesting point, I wasn't aware of the distinction between economic migrant and refugee

> Refugee immigrants are unable or unwilling to return home for fear or threat of prosecution, and thus, must make a life in the country that gives them refuge. Economic immigrants, on the other hand, are free from this constraint and can return home whenever they so desire.[1]

But then further clarification of the term 'economic migrant' is also interesting:

> The term ‘economic migrant’ has no legal definition. It is not mentioned in any international instruments of migration law.

and

> The inaccurate dichotomy between ‘economic migrants’ and refugees creates two fixed categories and gives the misleading impression that only refugees have and deserve legal protection and rights at the international level.

> Yet, the reality is different and far more complex. Migratory movements are composed of various types of migrants who may have specific protection needs, even if they are not fleeing persecution or a conflict. These include accompanied or unaccompanied migrant children; victims of human trafficking; migrants attempting to reunite with their families; and migrants affected by natural disasters or environmental degradation, including as a consequence of climate change. [2]

[1] https://docs.iza.org/dp1063.pdf [2] https://weblog.iom.int/false-dichotomy-between-economic-migr...

Re: Debris found came from missing Titan sub, says friend of passengers

#480

Post by frereubu »

Certhas wrote: post #187

It is notable how much news-coverage this received (for understandable reasons [1]) relative to the almost simultaneous disaster in the Mediterranean [2], where a shipwreck killed hundreds of people. [1] What springs to mind: Dramatic search action well suited for live blog coverage; psychological impact of the idea of people stranded in a submarine for days; And of course the average person here is probably a lot cl…

A better comparison is to the round-the-clock coverage of the Chilean miners who were stuck underground, and the boys who were eventually rescued from the cave in Thailand. Your comparison is apples to oranges.

The Messenia disaster was over by the time it hit the news (and it was covered extensively in the UK press), whereas the Titan situation was ongoing. Watch how quickly it disappears from the news cycle now it's been resolved.

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