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Mark Zuckerberg on Apple’s Vision Pro headset

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Re: Mark Zuckerberg on Apple’s Vision Pro headset

#501

There is something quite remarkable and puzzling about the VR/AR and now SC (spatial computing) space. All major (ad)tech companies are convinced that this is a major market that will materialize and be profitable if the right combination of hardware and software is developed. Their VR "visions" differ but only at the margin. No matter how you execute it, we are talking about people (homo sapiens) putting a major som…

Abstractly, we have different devices that stimulate our sensory inputs by mimicking, in an imperfect way, what they receive naturally in the environment. We can make devices that are fixed in space, where you need to orient your sensory inputs around the device. Or, we can make devices that instead are themselves oriented around your sensory inputs. The latter tends to be better for ergonomics and convenience (at le…

Headphones are a great analogy. For me, headphones are a burden to wear long-term.

And that's coming from someone who spends a good amount of time doing studio work. I much prefer the comfort of a good set of speakers as they're far less intrusive, but for some things you just have to have a pair of headphones on hand.

This is why I have doubts that the current form of VR headsets is going to be the new standard for working.

Re: Mark Zuckerberg on Apple’s Vision Pro headset

#502
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> So far at least, this is a tech that is being pushed onto people rather than being pulled. I think it's very hard to tell the difference between these things ex ante. Everything that succeeds looks like it was pulled. But many things were pushed before they were pulled. Buying things on the internet, for instance. This was laughed at for quite a while, while a few people and companies were committed to the idea tha…

I'm sorry, but buying things on the internet wasn't laughed at, if anything people were worried about it cause of their credit card numbers. It was that basis of the dot com boom of the late 90s. Everyone saw the potential and lashed money into it. It didn't deliver at the time, but that dynamic is totally different to vr headsets. Think smart phones, they weren't pushed, people wanted them in a serious way

The simplest contrast is ChatGPT vs VR right now. OpenAI is up to over a billion of users and hundreds of millions of subscribers in There is no demand for VR outside gaming. Efforts to try and create that demand are failing.

Re: Mark Zuckerberg on Apple’s Vision Pro headset

#503
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Porn. What you're missing is porn. Or generally, anything that's much better experienced directly than through a screen. Think about virtually hiking Mt Everest, diving the Mariana Trench, walking on Mars, etc. The technology certainly isn't there yet, but I can imagine a future where for a majority of the population, especially those with lower income, VR provides the only affordable* escape from reality. * In a few…

> Porn. What you're missing is porn. This is correct. With the ability to mimic touch, the VR NSFW avenues are set to explode.

Explode?!? Do you think people who don’t already pay for porn/sexual IOT devices/digital sexual pleasure content will start to enter this emerging market? Do you think the same customer base will drastically increase spending?

- I’m genuinely curious and surprised by the confidence.

Re: Mark Zuckerberg on Apple’s Vision Pro headset

#505
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Well, I am just really interested in the idea of taking a spatial computer headset device around with me, and doing work (writing software, so think VS Code/JetBrains/Xcode) in a large spatial environment instead of a laptop with a single small screen. I did know that the Quest Pro would not live up to that task (and it doesn't), but I wanted to see how close you could get today for $1500 (now, $1000). I also do boxi…

Just fyi, by many accounts of people who used the vPro its screen resolution is on par with the qPro. As in not significantly better or different. I would recommend taking advantage of their demos if you’re in the right city. Or waiting until it’s available to tryout in a nearby Apple Store before committing to a $3500 purchase for something that apparently isn’t much better than what you already have, for the purpos…

Thanks. I'd definitely take the opportunity to test it prior to buying, if possible. OTOH though I am kind of an avid hobbyist in this area, so I buy one or two of these machines each year (and sell the ones I don't have continued use for). So I'll probably end up buying it regardless, unless it is somehow awful when it actually comes out.

The resolution isn't the problem with Quest Pro (although I always want more) but the passthrough of the real environment around you is terrible. It's very distorted, as if the cameras are far lower resolution than the screen is.

I've heard that this aspect of the experience is better on the Apple Vision Pro, although I don't know for sure since I haven't yet tried it myself.

This actually doesn't matter that much, because the resolution is still good enough to walk to the fridge and grab a drink (or whatever) without taking it off.

The other super interesting thing to me is the external display of your eyes on the surface of the headset.

This sounded so stupid to me when it leaked before they announcement, that now I am embarrassed, because the problem is one we have all the time in my own house. I've realized it is a fundamental problem with these devices, and one I even had all the time, and yet I couldn't see how that would solve it. But it really does seem to.

The problem we always have is, our kids put on one of the headsets we have, but then we (their mom and I, and their siblings/friends) can't tell whether they can see us or not. This actually really matters a lot -- if the wearer cannot see, then we need to make sure no other kids get near them, otherwise there is a risk of collision and injury. This is partially solved by casting the view from the headset to the TV or whatever, but this is glitchy and sometimes even disabled.

The other scenario where this is really useful is at the office, or even a coffee shop. When a coworker walks up to you, they have a visual indicator of whether you can see them or not. Actually a very important social cue.

Or when the waitress comes up to bring you your coffee. You can look at her and accept the coffee, and it is obvious to her that you can see the cup she's handing you. Sure, she'll still probably be a little weirded out the first time, but she'll get used to it. :-D

Re: Mark Zuckerberg on Apple’s Vision Pro headset

#506

There is something quite remarkable and puzzling about the VR/AR and now SC (spatial computing) space. All major (ad)tech companies are convinced that this is a major market that will materialize and be profitable if the right combination of hardware and software is developed. Their VR "visions" differ but only at the margin. No matter how you execute it, we are talking about people (homo sapiens) putting a major som…

I think it's still a couple of years out, but what about a little thought experiment: Let's say you had a pair of normal looking glasses that do everything that Vision Pro is doing now [1] and cost, say, 1500 USD. This would IMO be a no-brainer, as you can then augment any space and activity you want with having views into the digital world - for work, for hobbies, you name it. That would IMO be a mass market device…

Augmented Reality (AR, or I guess "spatial computing" now) has always been what I thought would push the whole thing over the edge, and not VR. The "killer app" for VR is immersive experiences - while there's a niche for them, and I think we'll see more and better iterations, I don't think it has the growth potential that AR does.

The killer app for AR is the pair of glasses that pops up information as an overlay on the rest of the world. Directions? You get an arrow and line telling you where to go. Meet someone for lunch? Facial recognition tells you information about them - either recent social media posts if you're already connected or something like a public profile if you don't. Testing out a new recipe? It shows you step by step directions and floating video of the task you need to do right them. Watching a movie? Built in subtitles and tells you who the actors (or voice actors) are. Looking to buy a car? The AR headset gives you pricing information and stats for any car that you look at.

I could keep going. Think combination of Ready Player One, any gadget spy movie, and a video game isekai. Menus that allow you to make notes for when you go to the store, calendar reminders popping up visually

The potential for abuse of privacy is high, but the convenience factor and instant gratification probably mean that people will still adopt it in droves. Add in some kind of AI assistant that does a halfway decent job at anticipating the user's needs and it's a done deal.

The main things holding back that kind of thing are battery tech and miniaturization. 2 hours isn't gonna cut it, and it needs to shrink to a more innocuous level before we get there, but that's the direction I see it going. That's probably also why these companies are working so hard at iterating, to get that first-mover advantage.

If we do get there I pity anyone with photosensitivity issues or epilepsy. They're gonna have a rough time.

Re: Mark Zuckerberg on Apple’s Vision Pro headset

#507
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Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember the argument against tablets, I was one of them, I thought because of the weird hand/arm position, this can never be a serious format. It was pushed through several iterations, and now it is accepted.

I never had the same feeling about tablets. If anything, I am still somewhat surprised that they have (in relative terms) flopped. I was really expecting much more widespread use given it is quite a sweet-spot form factor (small and lightweight to carry around to far more places than a laptop yet offering a good fraction of the laptop functionality)

> I am still somewhat surprised that they have (in relative terms) flopped.

I am not - Apple's "Post-PC" vision was clearly not viable to me, despite initially out-selling the entire desktop industry initially. The "What is a computer" ads were cringe.

Re: Mark Zuckerberg on Apple’s Vision Pro headset

#508
post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The $3500 price tag and closed ecosystem is self-sabotaging, so MZ doesn't need to be worried at all. Carmack's vision was a cheap device that could hit mass market, and that's where the real game still is. Also, games.

But they're different classes of devices in a way. It's a new (primarily) standalone computing platform vs. just a peripheral. As far as vision, Meta's ultimate goal is to be the modern version of Linden Lab while Apple is providing the next step in personal computing. Meta's product is the metaverse. Apple's product is this device bolstered by their ecosystem. Give it a couple iterations and you'll have something th…

I love the way Apple fans take the marketing speak which is designed to create an artificial new market category at face value as if their marketing team was directly implanted in their brains already.

Re: Mark Zuckerberg on Apple’s Vision Pro headset

#509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's still a couple of years out, but what about a little thought experiment: Let's say you had a pair of normal looking glasses that do everything that Vision Pro is doing now [1] and cost, say, 1500 USD. This would IMO be a no-brainer, as you can then augment any space and activity you want with having views into the digital world - for work, for hobbies, you name it. That would IMO be a mass market device…

What makes you think it's possible, especially in just a couple of years, to have a laptop powerful enough to drive two 4k+ screens + cameras at the same time reduced to the weight and form factor of a pair of glasses? Phones, laptops, and tablets have all been fighting on weight vs compute power for years, and improvements are incremental year to year. I don't see any reason to imagine it's possible to reduce the si…

I'm not saying it's possible in a few years. My argument was: Such a device would definitely be mass market. So how much worse can it be and still be mass market. And I could see a consumer version of Vision Pro in a couple of years reaching that state, where they just make it a bit cheaper, lighter and smaller.

Re: Mark Zuckerberg on Apple’s Vision Pro headset

#510

There is something quite remarkable and puzzling about the VR/AR and now SC (spatial computing) space. All major (ad)tech companies are convinced that this is a major market that will materialize and be profitable if the right combination of hardware and software is developed. Their VR "visions" differ but only at the margin. No matter how you execute it, we are talking about people (homo sapiens) putting a major som…

I share similar thoughts. If we go back in time to the mobile phone era, just before the iphone was released, the mobile market was actually flourishing and very solid: companies like nokia, motorola and blackberry managed to make mobile phones something as common as a TV, almost everyone had one. At the time Apple introduced the iphone with its touchscreen and virtual keyboard, forever game changers to the whole mob…

> If we go back in time to the mobile phone era, just before the iphone was released, the mobile market was actually flourishing and very solid: companies like nokia, motorola and blackberry managed to make mobile phones something as common as a TV, almost everyone had one.

Apple doesn't always go into a flourishing industry though. Tablets were not doing well when Apple launched the iPad. The smart watch industry (and traditional watch industry) were shrinking.

Computing platforms have a tendency to become conversion devices, and have a pricing advantage over individual devices. Phones became car GPS replacements and mid-tier photo/video cameras. iPads became an ebook alternative for many. Apple Watch took on fitness tracking and more 'quantified self' roles.

It wasn't clear at launch what was likely or unlikely to succeed. Fashion-tier Apple Watches pretty much failed. iPads have a difficult time competing with eBook reader screens and portability. Fitness trackers maintain a battery life advantage over the Apple Watch.

> But yet... Why VR goggles can't be found in homes the same way that TVs, mobile phones and other popular electronic products despite that they are already affordable? Why hasn't this technology became mainstream? Is it maybe due to the fact that the VR experience can't be shared the same way that when we turn on a TV, play with friends with a gaming console on the couch or sit down on a desk with a PC and we share its use? Is it because it lacks that mythical killer VR app that could be a gamer changer? Is it because the industry hasn't released as much software for VR as for other more common devices like consoles, PCs, mobile phones?

Possibly all of them? I draw parallels between an Oculus and the Nintendo 3DS. Compared to other game consoles, it isn't an easily 'sharable' experience. Software had to be custom-developed for it to take advantage of its capabilities (two screens, one with touch and one with 3D display).

Some of the adoption was made easier by being software-compatible with the DS platform, meaning it launched with backward compatibility with an established library of games. If you liked the DS, you were mostly guaranteed not to be giving anything critical up with the 3DS.

That said, it was still gimmicky, and was still too expensive for some of their target demographics while also being a bit limited in terms of technology. The price was cut by a third, a model with a larger and higher quality array of screens was unveiled, while cheaper 2D models also shipped which were priced closer to what parents were looking to spend.

It sold about 77 million units over nine years across all models.

Compare that to the Nintendo Switch, which sold over 125 million units (across all models) in its first six years. It is more versatile (being both a personal handheld and tv-attached unit), more easily shared and perceived as less gimmicky. It launched at about $10 more when adjusting for inflation, without game backward compatibility but with a store where you could purchase ported titles.

A big part of the success of the Wii and the Switch are that they are suitable for more casual gameplay, including party play. This is something that VR is not great at, as you need to fit hardware for every player switch and it is rare (and expensive) to have local multiplayer.

I would say the Wii overcame the gimmicky nature of the controller interactions via Wii Sports; yet another outstanding showcase game for the system, on par with Tetris for the Gameboy. The multiplayer physical interaction and open nature of play set a tone for the system in general.

> It feels as if there's still something inherently missing in VR that won't make you go and buy a pair of goggles no matter how technologically advanced they become. And people spend a lot of money on expensive phones, gadgets and the alike...

Games are a hard lead-in - console-like devices such as the Quest are going to have significant limitations for cost, while hardware integrating with higher-end gaming rigs are naturally a low volume market. You can't really have a game like Guitar Hero for it because of how private and difficult-to-adjust it is.

Industrial applications are far easier, but lower volume on high margin hardware. I imagine you are talking about more of a consumer/prosumer adoption.

Workforce is confusing. I kinda enjoy the idea of Apple both mandating the engineers working on VR functionality come into the office. As an employee, it feels like workforce always skimps on per-seat investments, and will only consider hardware like this if an all-in-one headset "spatial computer" is cheaper than their bulk-order laptop.

But that said, the most difficult part is to keep people from trying to reinvent EVERYTHING as if it all has to be a 3D experience. There are certainly 3D tasks which are difficult to do with 2D tools (such as CAD), but there's also 2D tasks like word processing that make little sense to reinvent as 3D tasks.

Apple seems to be targeting it as an alternative to an iPad or MacBook Air, with backward compatibility to run iPad apps as 2D surfaces, and the ability to operate a Mac "screen". They seem to have invested quite a bit in screen quality to make presenting existing apps at existing text sizes feasible.

That approach is also understandable because that is the computing market Apple goes after. I have a hard time thinking this "Pro" headset would launch without a medium-term plan to get something in more of a $1500 price range. Apple Pro products generally exist because Apple thinks they should, and to let the higher BoM let them explore new technologies that aren't yet feasible on their baseline consumer hardware. But in all cases, Apple seems to try to go after gaps in the market where they don't see other companies investing in a particular experience.

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