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Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

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171–180 of 255 posts

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#171
post #7

Child sacrifice hooks into some very deep and dark aspects of human psychology that we have yet to unpack. There is a reason that this practice crops up in various civilizations seemingly independently, and it is not a pretty one - at least not by contemporary moral sensibilities. It is impossible to understand the biblical narrative of the binding of Isaac, for example, without addressing the context in which such a…

`Ibn Arabi has a splendid take on the entire affair. I read it in Toshihiko Izutsu’s Sufism and Taoism and it blew me away. In the Qur’an, the Muslim scripture, the story is touched upon, with an angel arriving just in the nick of time to tell Abraham to cease:

“””And when they had both submitted and he put him down upon his forehead, 104. We called to him, "O Abraham. You have fulfilled* the vision." Indeed, We thus reward the doers of good. Indeed, this was the clear trial. And We ransomed him with a great sacrifice”””

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_in_Islam#Sacrifice

*Ibn Arabi has this as “you have believed the dream”.

“”” Then when the boy reached the age to work with him, Abraham said, “O my dear son! I have seen in a dream that I ˹must˺ sacrifice you. So tell me what you think.” He replied, “O my dear father! Do as you are commanded. Allah willing, you will find me steadfast.” ”””

In Izutzu [1] we read how Ibn Arabi, a very influential Muslim mystic-saint, had read the narrative as Abraham being still in thrall of the illusion of materiality (“the world”) and reading the signs of God literally. This vision then, a great trial, was entirely designed to knock sense into him, awakening him to a higher consciousness.

[1]: https://traditionalhikma.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Sufi...

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#173

[flagged]

I’m not sure why you are bringing abortion into this. The Carthaginian’s would not consider what they were doing abortion and most modern people would also not consider this related to abortion. Is there some correlation that you wanted to make?

They are both the murder of your own child.

One day, abortion of an unborn child will be widely considered as shocking as child sacrifice is today.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#174

Child and human sacrifices were surprisingly common across the world. Many countries had to pass special laws to ban these practices - but it hasn't yet been rooted out.

Perhaps you could give some examples of where it still occurs, having not been rooted out. I'd be very interested as I'm not aware of any.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well you're not a historian right? So you can always opt to have no judgement. But, in any given field, the job is to sort the probable propositions from the improbable. The dialectic, the article establishes, amongst historians has been: Yes, there was sacrifice, the greeks/etc. said so No, there wasn't, we believe propaganda too readily Yes, there was, multiple sources (incl. archeology) now corroborate I agree wit…

How about this: my family gave me a firsthand account of what happened at the end of WW2 in my hometown (which was mass executions by a mob, with all the kids invited to come and see, one of those kids was my grandfather, grandmother and another one of those kids became professor and bartender in the student union). They used a bridge over the central river in the town and hung several dozen people, including 1 kid.…

I think you're making the point better than I can --- scepticism isn't innocent.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Authoritative religious figures stealing baby from a mothers arm and the local shaman sacrificing it on an altar = same as driving a car. Hacker news is a RIOT.

Wait until you realize that a lot of human sacrifice in the past had willing victims. Willing being a bit of a stretch considering the entire society was conditioned to believe it was necessary. Anyway, I’ll leave you with that and maybe you’ll go do some research on this topic.

I think it still exists in some extreme groups. Just think about any cause worth dying for an you essentially find an argument for a sacrifice.

In fact I remember the Texas governor Dan Patrick saying a lot of grandparents would be willing to sacrifice themselves during Covid for the economy (oddly he did not seem to be willing to lead by example).

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#177

Was this for religious reasons, or for quality control?

Typically the gods did not look favorably on inferior product being placed on the alter. Even King Kong demands the hottest young babe in the tribe, does he not? Did anyone ever “sacrifice” hoary old men or women to gods? (Only in passage of kingship did humans ritually kille the elder males.) So “religious” thinking would tend to demand something dear. This is inline with an inherent bug in human psyche — a false th…

> Typically the gods did not look favorably on inferior product being placed on the alter.

I bet "the gods" were especially apt to take that attitude in the cultures where people ate the sacrifice afterwards.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#178
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are other (non-Roman) sources describing child sacrifice in Phoenician societies.

Yeah, but they weren't exactly friends with the Phoenicians either, were they?

Why didn’t they accuse their other enemies of this?

Anyway, on balance I think it’s pretty reasonably to say that it’s more likely that Carthaginians practiced child sacrifice to some extent.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#179
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> is effectively crazy and bound for an asylum. It took several thousands of years for us to come to this conclusion. In the ancient word god/gods/divine spirit/etc. offered a perfectly reasonable explanation of how and why the world works. There were simply no better alternatives..

It didn't take "us" this long: Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful. - Seneca There's just always been rubes

Are you trying to say he was an in a modern atheist or was just criticizing the state/organized religion?

> There's just always been rubes

Yes, especially now when actually both sides of the argument are full of them..

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#180

Humans are funny. We pretend (a lot) to be more civilized than we are. Even the best of us falls far short of the ideal. We like to believe we're very far from human sacrifice, tyranny, the Triumphs of Rome, etc. We're very much not.

In many cases, we should look at a civilization's institutions rather than at its individuals to judge its degree of "advancement". Institutions are often much closer to the ideals of a society than its people.

For example, in many countries, people are quick to suspect someone, whereas the judicial system sees a defendant as innocent until proven guilty. (Imperfectly, of course, but better than what people do.)

(Edit: typo)

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