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Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

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Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#91
post #32

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It is about time that we call out soft sciences for what they are. Pretty much a hoax and a way to escape real work when going to university. Two of my partners both have academic degrees in soft sciences, one even made it to a PhD. And both pretty much lack understanding of the scientiific process. This is horrifying, because society treats them as if they should know.

And if you think that's bad, just wait till you hear about string theory! /s

Honestly this is a thin critique indeed. Social sciences are difficult precisely because they focus on phenomena with multi-factorial causes. Simple, high confidence, predictive theories are rare in psychology, sociology, anthropology etc, not because social scientists are committing a 'hoax'. In part because the factors impacting individual and collective behaviour are profoundly complex. And also because experimentalism in the social world is ethically, practically and epistemically fraught. We can't easily experiment on people or societies, and we can't stand as independent observers of phenomena of which we are part. We can develop hypotheses, develop experiments which attempt to falsify our null hypothesis, triangulate evidence from different observations and so on. We can model, observe, and infer. Over time we can develop frameworks that are measurably useful - from CBT to behavioural economics. But none of this is easy or definitive.

I note how common this perspective - that social science is some kind of conspiracy of faux expertise - is becoming on Hackernews. And how ironic it is, given that it's rooted in a lack of expertise or even familiarity with the topics critiqued.

This is just one forum in which the growing social skepticism of expertise in general, and science in particular is being articulated.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#92

[flagged]

Well you're not a historian right? So you can always opt to have no judgement. But, in any given field, the job is to sort the probable propositions from the improbable. The dialectic, the article establishes, amongst historians has been: Yes, there was sacrifice, the greeks/etc. said so No, there wasn't, we believe propaganda too readily Yes, there was, multiple sources (incl. archeology) now corroborate I agree wit…

How about this: my family gave me a firsthand account of what happened at the end of WW2 in my hometown (which was mass executions by a mob, with all the kids invited to come and see, one of those kids was my grandfather, grandmother and another one of those kids became professor and bartender in the student union). They used a bridge over the central river in the town and hung several dozen people, including 1 kid. People watched from the next bridge over, the kids were given most of the front part of the bridge to look on. My grandmother claims she didn't dare leave. For weeks afterwards, dozens of people disappeared or were outright found murdered in the street before revenge killings slowly died down. This was in the center of Northwest Europe.

I also know what the history books and the state says, namely that no such thing happened.

In fact this happened in essentially every town, all but the smallest, in Northwest Europe. There were local differences. In some cities kids got executed because of who their parents were. Sometimes the Nazi soldiers were gone, people in hiding came out, and the local government turned out to have internalized Nazi ideology ... and executed them. Mostly the government never looked at it's own role in what happened, and CERTAINLY never did anything to return possessions of deported people, mostly but certainly not exclusively Jews. Sometimes opportunists used the opportunity to execute local rich families or rival farmers and confiscate their possessions. In another relatively famous story, the local police commander knew that civil servants and things like notaries, but also some youth services related clergy, were cooperating with the Nazi government ... and executed them. In some places it even came to a battle between pro- and anti-Nazi forces (yes, after liberation).

You will find some reference to some of what happened in history books about the South Part of the Netherlands, but this happened everywhere. The government denies it happened in my hometown, and in fact denies it happened anywhere in the country. A general amnesty was declared by the Americans some months later, mostly out of total desperation that they were losing everyone, and that it needed to stop and instead they'd do the Nuremberg trials, which were limited to the worst of the worst, and exclusively people from the actual Nazi party.

Of course, all the European governments did all decide they were never going to repay or return anything that was stolen, not to Jews, not to those rich families, not to the Church, nothing. War pensions were awarded to survivors of the camps, the same or similar to what was awarded to soldiers.

Western European Governments just wanted control, and let murders happen, provided official documents "confirming" possessions of goods stolen through massacres, if only they were allowed to stay in power.

This included falsifying birth certificates for a LOT of children where, shall we say, parental responsibilities were redistributed. This practice would continue for decades after the war ended.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#93
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Huh? It is quite easy to understand for me. Imagine if someone came up to you tomorrow and said "God talked to me and told me I also need to sacrifice my child." You'd assume they were crazy, hopefully to the point of calling the authorities. It's impossible to look at that story from a modern context and think Abraham's actions are remotely right or rational. Why would anyone trust a god who does that? But if child…

[flagged]

Reading comments like this is so surreal. Millions of very normal, well-adjusted people around the world feel that God speaks to them. Have you literally never interacted with a religious person before, or are you just an idiot?

My mother donates 10% of her income and volunteers at homeless shelters because she feels that God wants her to. Other than that she lives like pretty much everyone else. Oh no, so terrible! Someone get this woman into the asylum!

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#95
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's usually to promote the academics, their paper, and their institutions. Is there a goal I am missing here?

The author credited is Josephine Quinn, a subscriber to intersectionality who wishes to provide an assumption for easy consumption that it wasn't just Africans and Aborigines who subscribed to barbarism (her assumption). Her assertion is that as the western world is based on the ancient Greek and Roman world (again her assumption) and that they were barbaric and that therefore we in the west are not better than them…

Carthaginians were neither Roman nor Greek. In fact, for a long time it was assumed that Carthaginian child sacrifice practice was just Roman propaganda about their enemies. I fail to see how acknowledging that Berber ancestors likely practiced child sacrifice says anything about modern Western world.

I mean, there was plenty of objectionable (by modern standards) behaviour practiced in both Rome and Ancient Greece that there’s really no reason to somehow try and pull Carthage into it.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#96
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is about time that we call out soft sciences for what they are. Pretty much a hoax and a way to escape real work when going to university. Two of my partners both have academic degrees in soft sciences, one even made it to a PhD. And both pretty much lack understanding of the scientiific process. This is horrifying, because society treats them as if they should know.

Plenty of engineers, MDs, and other people with credentials from a 'hard' science don't know the scientific process. Just because two people you know also fall into that category doesn't mean we have some sort crisis in academia.

"the engineer's disease" and perception of domain transference & relevance

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#97

[flagged]

Violence and the Sacred is a book that tries to answer, among some other things, why ritual sacrifices used to happen. I haven’t finished it yet, René Girard could perhaps be a bit meandering, but it’s an insightful read so far (and impossible to do justice in a summary).

He observes that in older human societies a transgression could easily lead to an infinite loop of vendetta-like bloodshed. He also observes that sacrifices always targeted a victim that is nearly a member of society (if not an actual human outcast or child, then an animal which people like and are reasonably close to on a daily basis) but never quite.

Part of his theory appears to be that ritual sacrifice (a murder that follows a particular procedure) eventually emerged as a viable steam vent that made societies more resilient. It lets out the impulse that causes members of society to be violent to each other, but focuses this impulse on someone who is adjacent to yet outside of that society, carries no social function, and is unable to push back or seek revenge, thus defusing the impulse safely (for society).

(A functioning justice system in modern civilization performs a similar role, taking revenge out of the hands of the victim.)

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#98
Child sacrifice was part of Semitic culture. The story of Issac and Jacob (Ishmael and Jacob in the Arab scriptures) teaching against the practice of child sacrifice is pretty good evidence that it was an old practice and that Hebrew and Arab cultures were trying to move on from it. Phoenicians, also Semitic, never moved on from the practice.

I don't understand why it's so controversial.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#99
post #65
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> is effectively crazy and bound for an asylum. It took several thousands of years for us to come to this conclusion. In the ancient word god/gods/divine spirit/etc. offered a perfectly reasonable explanation of how and why the world works. There were simply no better alternatives..

It didn't take "us" this long:

    Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.
    - Seneca
There's just always been rubes

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it is entirely clear that the accounts are independent.

It's pretty clear. There was no love lost between the Jews and Romans. The civilizations developed independently, and the survival of Judaism required rejection of the Roman world view in most things.

I don’t know. My reading of ancient anti-Christian polemic seems to show that Greeks and Romans familiarized themselves with Jewish sources enough to use them to bolster their arguments. One example being the story of Jesus having been fathered by a Roman soldier named Pantera.
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