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Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

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Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#21
post #7

Child sacrifice hooks into some very deep and dark aspects of human psychology that we have yet to unpack. There is a reason that this practice crops up in various civilizations seemingly independently, and it is not a pretty one - at least not by contemporary moral sensibilities. It is impossible to understand the biblical narrative of the binding of Isaac, for example, without addressing the context in which such a…

> Child sacrifice hooks into some very deep and dark aspects of human psychology that we have yet to unpack.

Maybe not. Humans first do something practical, and then use rituals and tradition to justify it.

Here's an alternative scenario:

In an age where abortion had a higher chance of killing the woman than childbirth, this was the only practical abortion.

It's only after the fact that it gets justified as a sacrifice demanded by the gods.

And once the practice is accepted, the next step is to forcefully sacrifice the children of your political enemies, i.e. the woman is not making the choice here.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#22

[flagged]

Well you're not a historian right? So you can always opt to have no judgement.

But, in any given field, the job is to sort the probable propositions from the improbable.

The dialectic, the article establishes, amongst historians has been:

    Yes, there was sacrifice, the greeks/etc. said so
    No, there wasn't, we believe propaganda too readily
    Yes, there was, multiple sources (incl. archeology) now corroborate 
I agree with your scepticism about the "speculative sciences" insofar as these speculations should determine high-risk policies today. But the job of "scientific history" is to produce better interpretations than those "floating around in popular folk history".

I imagine this counts.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#23

[flagged]

> My growing distrust of soft sciences over the past few years means that this article did not move the needle in me to believe Carthage practiced child sacrifice, not one millimeter. There is a trove of independent historic stories and tales about child sacrifice in Carthage from Plutarch, Plato and even the Bible. In some sense I think it would more obvious than not to assume that child sacrifice did take place.

> There is a trove of independent historic stories and tales about child sacrifice in Carthage from Plutarch, Plato and even the Bible.

So? Historic stories and tales from a time when those things weren't written down but handed orally from generation to generation are generally far removed from the truth.

After all, even in an age where almost everything is written down we still battle to separate baseless accusations from substantiated facts.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#24

[flagged]

> My growing distrust of soft sciences over the past few years means that this article did not move the needle in me to believe Carthage practiced child sacrifice, not one millimeter. There is a trove of independent historic stories and tales about child sacrifice in Carthage from Plutarch, Plato and even the Bible. In some sense I think it would more obvious than not to assume that child sacrifice did take place.

Couple of issues there; you’d have to question the independence (at the remove of time it’s impossible to know if there was a single source), and if you’re going to take attestation by multiple ancient writers as strong evidence of a thing, well, you’re going to end up believing some odd, and often contradictory, things.

That sort of evidence isn’t nothing, but _in itself_ you probably need to be very careful with it.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#25
post #19
post #7

Child sacrifice hooks into some very deep and dark aspects of human psychology that we have yet to unpack. There is a reason that this practice crops up in various civilizations seemingly independently, and it is not a pretty one - at least not by contemporary moral sensibilities. It is impossible to understand the biblical narrative of the binding of Isaac, for example, without addressing the context in which such a…

> It is impossible to understand the biblical narrative of the binding of Isaac Huh? It is quite easy to understand for me. Abraham and Sarah were childless and Sarah was infertile/too old DRC. Abraham prayed for an heir and miraculously Sarah gives life to Isaac. Yahwe demands Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, the most precious "thing" he has, to test his belief. Since Abraham does as he is told, a angel stops him from ki…

>Huh? It is quite easy to understand for me.

Imagine if someone came up to you tomorrow and said "God talked to me and told me I also need to sacrifice my child." You'd assume they were crazy, hopefully to the point of calling the authorities.

It's impossible to look at that story from a modern context and think Abraham's actions are remotely right or rational. Why would anyone trust a god who does that? But if child sacrifices are a somewhat common thing, Yahwe looks like the good god who doesn't actually make you kill your kid, just asks that you're willing to kill your kid.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#26

[flagged]

Carthage was a Phoenician colony. The Phoenicians (Sidon, Tyre) were independently described by other cultures as having a national cult that sacrificed children. These descriptions are preserved in the Bible. The struggle with this cult was a significant formative experience of Judaism that lasted many generations.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#27

[flagged]

That's a fine skeptical attitude, but to put it into practice you'd have to be familiar with the relevant scholarship, read the paper, independently verify its arguments and claims, and come to an informed conclusion. You'd also have to be familiar with the standards of evidence used in the relevant fields, which aren't the same as the standards of evidence used in the hard sciences—they can't be because it's largely impossible to carry out experiments and there is a paucity of available evidence.

It's mostly abduction—the best explanation for the available evidence—which wouldn't fly in the hard sciences, but it's all that's available to archeologists and ancient historians. If your heuristic is "hard proof or bullshit," you'll inevitably reject everything that comes out of these fields. (also, history isn't any sort of science, soft or otherwise; it's a branch of the humanities).

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My growing distrust of soft sciences over the past few years means that this article did not move the needle in me to believe Carthage practiced child sacrifice, not one millimeter. There is a trove of independent historic stories and tales about child sacrifice in Carthage from Plutarch, Plato and even the Bible. In some sense I think it would more obvious than not to assume that child sacrifice did take place.

> There is a trove of independent historic stories and tales about child sacrifice in Carthage from Plutarch, Plato and even the Bible. So? Historic stories and tales from a time when those things weren't written down but handed orally from generation to generation are generally far removed from the truth. After all, even in an age where almost everything is written down we still battle to separate baseless accusatio…

The bible was initially an oral tradition but I’m pretty sure Plutarch and Plato were written down from the start.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#29

[flagged]

> It is interesting that civilizations have engaged in ritual sacrifice. The question is why?

A few thoughts:

- Sacrifice and civilization are closely related. To live in a society you have to sacrifice some autonomy, some of your (and your family's) goals and some resources. Further, to prepare for the future you have to make a sacrifice in the present. Many people even sacrifice their present selves for their future (not born yet) offspring. It is only logical (if a bit esoteric) then, to think that making a bigger sacrifice will transmute into bigger positives.

- Christianity (not that familiar with Judaism or Islam) was revolutionary because Jesus already made the ultimate sacrifice, essentially freeing everyone from the obligation.

- If one takes a sober view, the history of ritual sacrifices has not ended (and probably never will). Mao was willing to sacrifice millions to bring about Communism (read: Paradise / heaven on earth). Similarly for the Bolsheviks, Nazis, Red Khmer, Robespierre etc. They all explicitly stated in their own writing that the deaths were a worthwhile sacrifice. That is the psychopathic variant of ritual sacrifice, slaughtering a goat to Zeus looks a lot more tame and rational in comparison, no?

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is a trove of independent historic stories and tales about child sacrifice in Carthage from Plutarch, Plato and even the Bible. So? Historic stories and tales from a time when those things weren't written down but handed orally from generation to generation are generally far removed from the truth. After all, even in an age where almost everything is written down we still battle to separate baseless accusatio…

The bible was initially an oral tradition but I’m pretty sure Plutarch and Plato were written down from the start.

Yes, but Plato and Plutarch weren't eyewitnesses, they were recording the claims of others, i.e. still rooted in oral histories.
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