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Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

ox.ac.uk

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Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#121
post #91
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is about time that we call out soft sciences for what they are. Pretty much a hoax and a way to escape real work when going to university. Two of my partners both have academic degrees in soft sciences, one even made it to a PhD. And both pretty much lack understanding of the scientiific process. This is horrifying, because society treats them as if they should know.

And if you think that's bad, just wait till you hear about string theory! /s Honestly this is a thin critique indeed. Social sciences are difficult precisely because they focus on phenomena with multi-factorial causes. Simple, high confidence, predictive theories are rare in psychology, sociology, anthropology etc, not because social scientists are committing a 'hoax'. In part because the factors impacting individual…

No, this belief is rooted in the observation that many social science fields, like social psychology, have replication rates in the 20% [1] range and are rife with obviously broken experimental methodology - hey let's go poll Amazon Mechanical Turk penny poll pros, and extrapolate it to everybody - perfect! And note that those replication studies are not picking low hanging fruit, they're going after the some biggest, highest impact factor journals there are in these fields. And so what that tells you is that if you take a given study in these fields, took what was said and assumed the exact opposite (or at least that it was not statistically relevant) you'd be right overwhelmingly more often than somebody who took these studies and went 'wow, that's what the science says I guess.'

Furthermore, there is a difference between something being difficult and it being impossible. Many don't realize that astrology was, for many centuries a "real" science, at least as real as modern social science is. It only ended, with some irony, because of the Church. They claimed that astrology's claims to be able to effectively divine the future was heretical and blasphemous, which led to astrology to go from a staple of education and science to being a fringe pseudoscience used for entertainment purposes only. I've no doubt that many practitioners of the time did genuinely feel that what they were doing was simply very difficult. And in fact there probably are some incidental correlations one can draw based on groups across time, so they would be able to show some "real" results, even if the entire field was completely bunk.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisis#In_psycholo...

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#122
post #112

More controversially, note that Phoenicia invented the alphabet, had the first maritime global trade empire, colonized Europe in the 13th century BC, and Punic dynasties eventually sat on the Roman throne despite losing the Punic wars ostensibly, with one such Severan emperor dismantling the Pantheon of Jupiter. You can also trace Byzantine dynasties back eastward and later empires too have this connection through dy…

> So those conspiracy theories claiming Jewish world domination are all rather quaint when you consider that Israel was just a backwater You realize Phoenicia and Israel are neighbors and two very small countries? The distance from Tel Aviv to Beirut is only 200Km. They are practically the same people except at some point in history they diverged in religion and became hostile to one another. Maybe if they kept sacri…

> The distance from Tel Aviv to Beirut is only 200Km

There have been genetically and culturally distinct populations that maintained their segregation over far smaller distances than this.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#123
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is about time that we call out soft sciences for what they are. Pretty much a hoax and a way to escape real work when going to university. Two of my partners both have academic degrees in soft sciences, one even made it to a PhD. And both pretty much lack understanding of the scientiific process. This is horrifying, because society treats them as if they should know.

Plenty of engineers, MDs, and other people with credentials from a 'hard' science don't know the scientific process. Just because two people you know also fall into that category doesn't mean we have some sort crisis in academia.

[deleted]

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#124
post #98

Child sacrifice was part of Semitic culture. The story of Issac and Jacob (Ishmael and Jacob in the Arab scriptures) teaching against the practice of child sacrifice is pretty good evidence that it was an old practice and that Hebrew and Arab cultures were trying to move on from it. Phoenicians, also Semitic, never moved on from the practice. I don't understand why it's so controversial.

I think you do understand why "our ancestors practiced child sacrifice" is controversial when you think about it

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#125
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I thought it was well accepted I was in a museum in Sardinia (was part of Carthage) sometime ago and saw some of the tophets mentioned in the article. The argument from the linked article was repeated on one of the info boards - that the Romans demonized their enemies and lots of our sources on alleged child sacrifice come from them. I am not sure about the Carthagenian sources on the matter, but they did not make…

There are other (non-Roman) sources describing child sacrifice in Phoenician societies.

Yeah, but they weren't exactly friends with the Phoenicians either, were they?

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#126

[flagged]

Roman brothel excavations (in the old vincas, villages surrounding Roman frontier forts) would have numerous (>50) holes chipped in the sod with sad remains of tiny human bones. The unwanted children of the employees of the brothel, the unwanted and unsupportable offspring of Roman soldiers sowing their wild oats and not stepping up. Not a thing to debate. Sure infant mortality was bad back then but not that bad. And…

I believe the article is about ritual sacrifice, to a deity, and not what you describe that to me just sounds like the misery of no practical means of contraception or abortion.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#127
post #8

I am surprised this is a big deal, I thought it was well accepted. (Other) Phoenicians did it, Romans practised human (not sure about child) sacrifice and I thought the Carthaginians themselves recorded doing it? Humans are pretty crazy and we shouldn't pretend otherwise...

Romans almost exclusively only sacrificed foreigners who were basically subhuman (and even that was exceptionally rare). Sacrificing your own citizens was something else…

as late as the 19th century, "accepted practices of the time" was a defense for some genocides. Source: british historians documenting acts of war by early British Kings

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#128
post #98

Child sacrifice was part of Semitic culture. The story of Issac and Jacob (Ishmael and Jacob in the Arab scriptures) teaching against the practice of child sacrifice is pretty good evidence that it was an old practice and that Hebrew and Arab cultures were trying to move on from it. Phoenicians, also Semitic, never moved on from the practice. I don't understand why it's so controversial.

I think you do understand why "our ancestors practiced child sacrifice" is controversial when you think about it

[flagged]

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#129
post #98

Child sacrifice was part of Semitic culture. The story of Issac and Jacob (Ishmael and Jacob in the Arab scriptures) teaching against the practice of child sacrifice is pretty good evidence that it was an old practice and that Hebrew and Arab cultures were trying to move on from it. Phoenicians, also Semitic, never moved on from the practice. I don't understand why it's so controversial.

I think you do understand why "our ancestors practiced child sacrifice" is controversial when you think about it

I think the most charitable interpretation of OP is that there is no controversy over the fact that pagan Semites practiced ritual human (child) sacrifice.

Re: Ancient Carthaginians did sacrifice their children (2014)

#130
post #98

Child sacrifice was part of Semitic culture. The story of Issac and Jacob (Ishmael and Jacob in the Arab scriptures) teaching against the practice of child sacrifice is pretty good evidence that it was an old practice and that Hebrew and Arab cultures were trying to move on from it. Phoenicians, also Semitic, never moved on from the practice. I don't understand why it's so controversial.

I think you do understand why "our ancestors practiced child sacrifice" is controversial when you think about it

A simple fact of history being controversial is a function of bias. The worship of Moloch and its attendant ritual of child sacrifice is attested to in many scriptures.
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