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What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

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Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#301

Post by Connor_Creegan1 »

nkjnlknlk wrote: post #92
trabant00 wrote: post #51

> 'Chesterton's fence' is the principle that reforms should not be made until the reasoning behind the existing state of affairs is understood. Marriage is the product of how many generations worth of experimenting with social contracts? You have to be either very young or lack a healthy dose of humility to think you can come up with a better system (in general, not just your case). Or, as I suspect, it's just ration…

marriage when women were property and marriage now that women are being treated as humans (though rights are being taken away) are two different things.

[dead]

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#302

Post by thomastjeffery »

medo-bear wrote: post #248
thomastjeffery wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If what I am saying is just common sense, then why is what you have to say "quite special"? In all sincerity, it sounds like you're just talking out of your ass. The world exists around you, not inside your own mind. You are no more or less special than me.

i didnt claim what i said is special. i said that a particular relationship is special, a family relationship, and particularly that of marriage. i also think that this claim is common sense, and hope it continues to be common sense

[flagged]

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#303

Post by medo-bear »

thomastjeffery wrote: post #302
medo-bear wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i didnt claim what i said is special. i said that a particular relationship is special, a family relationship, and particularly that of marriage. i also think that this claim is common sense, and hope it continues to be common sense

[flagged]

get help

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#304

Post by philwelch »

thomastjeffery wrote: post #174
mellosouls wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you can participate in a close friendship and casual sex. You can have several of each. The casual sex "choice" doesn't apply to the majority of adults (most straight men don't have the option of multiple sex partners, most women don't want them) so it's difficult to see its relevance here. If you mean throughout their life rather than concurrently, that doesn't really affect the idea that marriage itself is of speci…

> The casual sex "choice" doesn't apply to the majority of adults (most straight men don't have the option of multiple sex partners, most women don't want them) so it's difficult to see its relevance here. How much of that is social expectation? I can see the circular reasoning here: can I get out? That is a challenge. Social expectations set boundaries: changing those boundaries takes a lot of work. It's still possi…

> How much of that is social expectation?

Yes, we can change social expectations and boundaries. We did change social expectations and boundaries. It was called the "Sexual Revolution" and it happened over half a century ago. It's old news. This is where we've ended up since then.

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#305

Post by WorldMaker »

ISL wrote: post #185
0xr0kk3r wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"seldom duplicated elsewhere" I hear this same sentiment from marines, cops, fireman, and fraternity members. I also hear it from Masons, Elks, Shriners, etc. I don't understand why men have to think they've "discovered" something about lifelong bonds that is exclusive to just men's clubs. My guess is that men are taught not to have strong emotional bonds with anyone but their mothers or wives, and then think it is s…

For each person, finding those bonds is a remarkable and life-changing event.

Yeah, for a lot of people finding good friends is always a life-changing event no matter the outer circumstances surrounding that bonding.

The interesting part of the discussion though is how often those bonds are misattributed to causation from the concomitant circumstances (violence, special secretive clubs) as opposed to correlation and just raw, "boring" proximity. The general loss of consistent "third places" to encourage proximity among potential friends somewhat makes it seem even more "causitive" that people (especially those socialized under today's idea of masculinity) misattribute the wonder of forming a new friend bond to "requiring" ugly circumstances such as shared violence or special secretive clubs, rather than just being a healthy and natural outcome of social proximity (and emotional "closeness") among our aggressively social species that doesn't need to be forced through pain or sweat or hazing or forced philanthropy or secret handshakes.

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#306

Post by medo-bear »

thomastjeffery wrote: post #285
medo-bear wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there are plenty of societal pressures against family life. and societal expectations are against faith and trust in the other person

> societal expectations are against faith and trust in the other person That implies a need for faith and trust in a person. Where does is that need come from? Committed romance. If that isn't my goal, what do I have to fear?

i believe that need is an intrinsicaly human need

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#307

Post by philwelch »

mschuster91 wrote: post #117
dash2 wrote: post #23

As advanced countries' systems for marriage and child-rearing continue to fail, there is a constant demand for cope. What if we learned to love being single? What if we substitute friendship for marriage? 64 ways to enjoy retirement on your own! This is the collective version of listening to an alcoholic explain why he doesn't have a problem.

> As advanced countries' systems for marriage and child-rearing continue to fail, there is a constant demand for cope. Make childcare not a choice between living in poverty and not, and people will have children again. Many of my generation including myself can't afford children despite us wanting to. The worst problem is obviously housing costs and cost of living in general, coupled with wage stagnation. We don't wa…

> Make childcare not a choice between living in poverty and not, and people will have children again.

If you're a resident of a developed country in the year 2023, I guarantee you that the vast majority of your ancestors were poorer when they had their children than you will be if you have children now.

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#308

Post by mjh2539 »

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #32
abosherid wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

May I ask what religion?

Traditional Catholicism. “Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himself up for it.” Doesn’t take more than a minute of reflection to figure out why we interpret it this way. Edit @avar to your question ("posting too fast"): https://gist.github.com/gjsman/d928b0db53cc2a4bacf37d4e45543...

Re your gist post, the hypostasis had a human nature from the beginning, and not just from the time he was born.

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#309

Post by thomastjeffery »

willis936 wrote: post #112
thomastjeffery wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: There is more than one kind of relationship! It's exhausting to constantly hear about romantic commitment as if it's the barometer for all relationships . That's absurd! Did it truly never cross your mind that a person can have more than one meaningful relationship in their lives? No wonder people are so lonely! You don't need one or the other: you can participate in a close…

That sounds pragmatic, and it is. A partner is also pragmatic. Why dismiss one while promoting the other? Someone can have good friends and also someone they spend everyday with for 50 years.

You can spend every day for 50 years with someone whom you relate with deeply and meaningfully.

That doesn't have to be the same person every day. It can be 50 different people. It can even be your self.

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#310

Post by thomastjeffery »

dfxm12 wrote: post #258
thomastjeffery wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: There is more than one kind of relationship! It's exhausting to constantly hear about romantic commitment as if it's the barometer for all relationships . That's absurd! Did it truly never cross your mind that a person can have more than one meaningful relationship in their lives? No wonder people are so lonely! You don't need one or the other: you can participate in a close…

Relationship isn't what we are You don't see it this way, but unfortunately, "traditional" marriage & gender roles, including having lots of kids has become an ID pol issue for political conservatives and the religious right. In the past, we see conservatives attacks on abortion and espousal of replacement theory. Very recently, we've seen legislation come up to try and do away with no-fault divorce. Also see the tra…

I'm intimately familiar with this reality. I'm here to confront it.
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