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What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

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Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#251

Post by ddj231 »

nkjnlknlk wrote: post #86
ddj231 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well the parent to child relationship is not a procreative one. New family units have to form that are procreative or that society will eventually crumble. So it’s not simply subjective. The marriage relationship is procreative and a bedrock for society. I don’t think a society having greater / lesser deference to parents as authority figures takes away from that reality. The parents themselves are in a procreative r…

Why would monogamous relationships be better for society from your perspective? Shouldn't you be arguing that marriage is holding our "new family unit" generation back?

Well after procreation comes child rearing. We don’t abandon human children to the wild.

I don’t believe the benefits of monogamous marriage are simply cultural. One would have to pose a better ideal for generating and raising children (because nurturing the next generation is a key part of societal survival) that leads to human flourishing. Is it polygamy, or casual hookups, or absentee fathers?

That said I do think there is more to the marriage relationship than procreation. That 2 people are becoming one. With that comes life long friendship bound by a vow that weathers the storms of life, close intimacy etc.

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#252

Post by wonderwonder »

Each to their own and more power to these people, though not sure why any potential husband would accept a romantic interest saying: “I need you to know that she’s not going anywhere. She is my No. 1.” For me that is a non starter. I would wish her well and move on.

My wife is the most important person to me and the only one I can generally be myself around. Getting married should be a lifelong bond and commitment (or at least that should be the intent, obviously things change). While I almost never ask for help, I know that if I ever needed it she would be there at the drop of a hat. I am relatively emotionally numb but I am genuinely happy when she is happy. A day where she smiles is a good day. A long term marriage is also a place to be sexually (monogamously, at least for us) open in a way that most relationships are not. You learn what the other likes.

Friends can come and go but I anchor my world around my wife and kids. The only thing that would break it is infidelity.

I don't have any close friends, but honestly I dont miss having them either. I'm pretty comfortable on my own and as long as I can spend time with my wife and kids at the end of the day I am perfectly content.

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#253

Post by trabant00 »

nkjnlknlk wrote: post #92
trabant00 wrote: post #51

> 'Chesterton's fence' is the principle that reforms should not be made until the reasoning behind the existing state of affairs is understood. Marriage is the product of how many generations worth of experimenting with social contracts? You have to be either very young or lack a healthy dose of humility to think you can come up with a better system (in general, not just your case). Or, as I suspect, it's just ration…

marriage when women were property and marriage now that women are being treated as humans (though rights are being taken away) are two different things.

Women where not always and everywhere property. Yet they still married. You suffer from the illusion of history linearly advancing to better times.

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#254

Post by nlittlepoole »

Mezzie wrote: post #182
mydriasis wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a super interesting perspective, I hadn't thought about that -- thank you for sharing!

I also think the focus on romantic sexual relationships as the only viable path to support and love creates a lot of neuroses that ironically make partnering harder . People are obsessed with their looks, get jealous over their romantic partners' attention, etc. In the lesbian and gay community, it's also common to either deal with abusive relationships or commit too early because unless you're in a large city, this…

I agree with your take here. I have a partner that anyone in this thread would label as a #1 but my two siblings are essentially on the same plane of intimacy. If my partner left my life for whatever reason, I'd still have my siblings and while losing someone is hard it wouldn't destroy me because of that support. Its a fairly normal dynamic in my family. I had two uncles who lived together their whole lives, even through relationships that didn't end up working out even though they had children. My grandmother lived in the same apartment building as her brother for 30 years and her other two siblings lived in the same neighborhood. Her husband (my grandfather) died a few years into their marriage and her siblings (who never got married) always fulfilled the role that a partner would play.

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#255

Post by medo-bear »

thomastjeffery wrote: post #174
mellosouls wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you can participate in a close friendship and casual sex. You can have several of each. The casual sex "choice" doesn't apply to the majority of adults (most straight men don't have the option of multiple sex partners, most women don't want them) so it's difficult to see its relevance here. If you mean throughout their life rather than concurrently, that doesn't really affect the idea that marriage itself is of speci…

> The casual sex "choice" doesn't apply to the majority of adults (most straight men don't have the option of multiple sex partners, most women don't want them) so it's difficult to see its relevance here. How much of that is social expectation? I can see the circular reasoning here: can I get out? That is a challenge. Social expectations set boundaries: changing those boundaries takes a lot of work. It's still possi…

there are plenty of societal pressures against family life. and societal expectations are against faith and trust in the other person

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#258

Post by dfxm12 »

thomastjeffery wrote: post #59
dash2 wrote: post #23

As advanced countries' systems for marriage and child-rearing continue to fail, there is a constant demand for cope. What if we learned to love being single? What if we substitute friendship for marriage? 64 ways to enjoy retirement on your own! This is the collective version of listening to an alcoholic explain why he doesn't have a problem.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: There is more than one kind of relationship! It's exhausting to constantly hear about romantic commitment as if it's the barometer for all relationships . That's absurd! Did it truly never cross your mind that a person can have more than one meaningful relationship in their lives? No wonder people are so lonely! You don't need one or the other: you can participate in a close…

Relationship isn't what we are

You don't see it this way, but unfortunately, "traditional" marriage & gender roles, including having lots of kids has become an ID pol issue for political conservatives and the religious right. In the past, we see conservatives attacks on abortion and espousal of replacement theory. Very recently, we've seen legislation come up to try and do away with no-fault divorce. Also see the tradwife movement.

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#259

Post by standardUser »

wonderwonder wrote: post #252

Each to their own and more power to these people, though not sure why any potential husband would accept a romantic interest saying: “I need you to know that she’s not going anywhere. She is my No. 1.” For me that is a non starter. I would wish her well and move on. My wife is the most important person to me and the only one I can generally be myself around. Getting married should be a lifelong bond and commitment (o…

I keep reading versions of "friends can come and go", which makes it clear that my experienced with friendship is not universal. I have many friendships that are far longer-lived than my longest relationships and have outlasted several multi-year relationships. Every friend I have consoled during a major break-up - and there have been many - was relying on a friendship that predated and outlasted their serious romantic relationship. Yes, some romantic relationships can go on indefinitely, but that is not a universal experience. Then again, lifelong friendships are not universal either.

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#260

Post by thomastjeffery »

nemo44x wrote: post #232
thomastjeffery wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Activities are not infinite. Given the number of days we live, it makes plenty of sense to spend different days on different activities in different places with different people. The only constant here is self. The question is, what experiences fulfill your self? Experiences with one committed partner, or with several friends? I understand that many people prefer the Cathedral. I prefer the Bazaar.

You clearly don't have kids/family and that's OK. What you've mentioned in a few places in this thread is just not appetizing at all to people with kids and are doing the whole family thing. I don't think everyone needs to do that as the 1 fulfilling way to live a life - although it is incredibly fulfilling and I understand why so many people do it, or dream of it. But a networked-communal lifestyle is just not appea…

> You clearly don't have kids/family and that's OK.

1. It being OK is my point.

2. I do have family: I'm just not a parent. I have parents and siblings and nieces and nephews and aunts and uncles and cousins. I know many and am very close to several.

There are many kids in my life. They don't belong to me, but do they truly belong to anyone?

We all have different circumstances. I understand if you can't relate to mine. Even so, my experience does exist: it is not defined by yours.

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