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What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

theatlantic.com

181–190 of 418 posts

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#181

This is really yet another article that stumbles over the artificiality of the American nuclear families. Not just friendships, but kinship and familial relations in most cultures on earth right now are already the center of life. This idea of the marriage partner as quasi-mystical figure in the center of your life was cooked up not so long ago. In most places marriage is practical, arranged for reproduction, and peo…

>Also funnily enough of course even in the Western classical tradition the most iconic relationship is the male companionship

Yes, this is the thing to consider. Modernity has atomized us and destroyed the ancient understanding of friendship which was key to how they navigated the world. People retreated to marriage, which now also is faltering. I believe reclaiming friendship would radically transform our world in such a way that many other ailing institutions would be restored to health.

"A man without friends is like a man with one arm." -Serbian Proverb

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#182
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And that's a shame. I truly think that there's someone like that out there for everyone. I also think it's sad when someone doesn't find that person. I wish that fortune for everyone. Centering marriage and romantic relationships means that most people only consider romantic partners as their 'person'. My person is my baby sister. We live together, have co-mingled finances, make long-term plans (including possibly…

That's a super interesting perspective, I hadn't thought about that -- thank you for sharing!

I also think the focus on romantic sexual relationships as the only viable path to support and love creates a lot of neuroses that ironically make partnering harder. People are obsessed with their looks, get jealous over their romantic partners' attention, etc. In the lesbian and gay community, it's also common to either deal with abusive relationships or commit too early because unless you're in a large city, this might be your only chance at partnering and if partnering is your only chance to be loved or supported, you just put up with it. (Bisexuals usually just date the opposite sex).

There are certainly benefits to having your 'person' be your sexual partner: Sex helps with intimacy and hopefully creates a part of your life where you associate each other with pleasure. If you're of opposite sexes, you can have children that reflect both of you which makes parenting easier. It can also compensate for weaknesses in one's family or community of origin: somebody leaving a cult can find love.

But there are benefits to other types of primary relationships as well. For me and my sister, for example:

- No worries about the bedroom. We don't have to worry about staying sexy enough, our partners losing attraction to us, etc. Sex drives change over time and are finicky and hard to control.

- We've literally known each other our entire lives. You can find this in a romantic partner but most people aren't marrying people they've known since they were four years old.

- Related to the above, we come from the same environment and have a lot of the same touchstones which makes communication way easier. Instead of having to explain my entire childhood history and why I would be reacting a certain way to something, I can just say, "You're being like Mom. :( " and it's automatically understood.

- Sibling bonds aren't dissolvable and are relationships of equals. You can hate your sibling, but you're always siblings. Marriages and romantic partnerships end. Parental bonds have power dynamics encoded in them.

- Practically, us living together and pooling resources allows for maximization of inter-generational wealth building. Whatever our parents have - if anything - when they pass won't be split.

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#183
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you can participate in a close friendship and casual sex. You can have several of each. The casual sex "choice" doesn't apply to the majority of adults (most straight men don't have the option of multiple sex partners, most women don't want them) so it's difficult to see its relevance here. If you mean throughout their life rather than concurrently, that doesn't really affect the idea that marriage itself is of speci…

You'd be surprised what happens when you are kind and a good communicator with a healthy social life. I thought the same thing when I was younger but now I'm in the prime of my dating and casual sex life. I try not to hold tightly to expectations but can see this path in life leading to some new close friendships with the possibility of closer partnerships ahead. The trick is to prioritize the people around you, rath…

> can see this path in life leading to some new close friendships with the possibility of closer partnerships ahead.

Just a few more pulls and the big payout will come. You've spent so many quarters on the slot machine, it'll definitely pay out at any moment.

> thought the same thing when I was younger but now I'm in the prime of my dating and casual sex life.

I had a very charismatic friend who ended up in this situation of being a sex partner to 4-5 very attractive women in this sort of poly relationship thing.

Just like the first time you go to the bar and it's full of alcohol and people, it was fun. Genuinely good looking women and he just had to have sex or sometimes fun adventures with them. None of the "gunk" of relationships, none of the work.

Well that fun doesn't last very long. Pandemic happened, everyone isolated and went to their "nesting" mate and uh.. it wasn't him. He wasn't anyone's #1. He was just a convenient sex toy who bought dinner.

He still isn't anyone's #1.

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: There is more than one kind of relationship! It's exhausting to constantly hear about romantic commitment as if it's the barometer for all relationships . That's absurd! Did it truly never cross your mind that a person can have more than one meaningful relationship in their lives? No wonder people are so lonely! You don't need one or the other: you can participate in a close…

this sounds like you think you are saying something entirely novel. it is actually just common sense. see it is true there are many kinds of relationships, but there is only one type of relationship that resembles having a successful marriage and family, and it is quite special

If what I am saying is just common sense, then why is what you have to say "quite special"?

In all sincerity, it sounds like you're just talking out of your ass. The world exists around you, not inside your own mind. You are no more or less special than me.

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#185
post #120

This is an edge case. Marines in particular, and the military members in general, will form a special bond that can seldom be duplicated elsewhere. And that has been my experience. I was among a group of six that met at the schoolhouse after boot camp. We did not get sent to the same units, but we were all PCS'd to the same base. Two of us (not myself) made a career of the corps, and the others went to school after s…

"seldom duplicated elsewhere" I hear this same sentiment from marines, cops, fireman, and fraternity members. I also hear it from Masons, Elks, Shriners, etc. I don't understand why men have to think they've "discovered" something about lifelong bonds that is exclusive to just men's clubs. My guess is that men are taught not to have strong emotional bonds with anyone but their mothers or wives, and then think it is s…

For each person, finding those bonds is a remarkable and life-changing event.

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#186
post #118
post #23

As advanced countries' systems for marriage and child-rearing continue to fail, there is a constant demand for cope. What if we learned to love being single? What if we substitute friendship for marriage? 64 ways to enjoy retirement on your own! This is the collective version of listening to an alcoholic explain why he doesn't have a problem.

>. What if we learned to love being single? Now, you may not need to be married as per how it's defined by the state, but there are some number of benefits especially related to health when it comes to long term partnership. Trying to say being single is fine, then dying a few years younger may not be the best way to evangelize your idealism.

Seems like you're making assumptions about the way the causation flows here.

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#187
In my experience, many women (not my wife thankfully) police their husband's social life to a point that would be considered abusive should the sexes be reversed. As a society, we've kind of accepted this sort of control over the husband by the wife as normal, even though the opposite is (rightfully) stigmatized.

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#188
I liked this piece a lot. However, I think one failing, which is also tripping up many of the commenters here, is this insistence on ordering one's relationships. Who's my number one?

The moment you ask that, you end up with the social norm that one's sexual-romantic partner must be the number one. So you have a ton of people in the comments here who are very defensive of that norm, and you have people like those in the article who are consciously opposing it - they have a different number one - by finding an intimate friend or platonic life partner.

But what if we gave up this silly notion?

I have a cohabiting sexual partner. We're sexually monogamous, because as with most human beings that works best for us. Is my partner my "number one"? I genuinely don't know how to answer that question, if I seriously think about it. There's a strong inclination to just say "yes", because that's the expectation when you have a partner like this, but I'm looking for something deeper that would ground such a response.

My partner and I care for each other (the action, not the emotion) more than for anyone outside the relationship; we know more of each other's secrets. But I have friends with whom I have an enormous amount of emotional intimacy, who understand me better in many ways than my partner does. I love them very deeply; I argue less with them, and sometimes building intimacy with them is easier than with my partner.

While I fall mostly into the norm, I don't feel compelled to compare these relationships to the one I have with my sexual partner. Each of them is important. They're all "friendships" of one stripe or another. I think that's the solution here: to the extent that marriage is the "center of life" it's because marriage is just a friendship like any other. What the article is really about is the American norm that one's marriage be one's only deep, emotionally intimate friendship.

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#189
post #120

This is an edge case. Marines in particular, and the military members in general, will form a special bond that can seldom be duplicated elsewhere. And that has been my experience. I was among a group of six that met at the schoolhouse after boot camp. We did not get sent to the same units, but we were all PCS'd to the same base. Two of us (not myself) made a career of the corps, and the others went to school after s…

"seldom duplicated elsewhere" I hear this same sentiment from marines, cops, fireman, and fraternity members. I also hear it from Masons, Elks, Shriners, etc. I don't understand why men have to think they've "discovered" something about lifelong bonds that is exclusive to just men's clubs. My guess is that men are taught not to have strong emotional bonds with anyone but their mothers or wives, and then think it is s…

I think you're just over-analyzing the words a bit. When I hear someone say "seldom duplicated elsewhere" I don't think they're convinced it's unique all throughout the world. They know there are millions of other soldiers out there who make similar bonds. They just mean seldom duplicated with other people within their own lives.

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#190

As June rolled around today, I was just reflecting on the history of sexuality, and the philosophical shift that has occurred relatively recently, from "lifestyle" to "orientation" to "identity" and all that comes with it. People in the past did not consider themselves to have sexual orientations, to be gay or straight or something else. Even someone who was committed to a same-sex romantic relationship wouldn't have…

I think there has been a terrible loss that is rarely acknowledged in that men in the western world can no longer have intimate friendships without having to defend their sexual orientation. Seinfeld's "Not that there's anything wrong with that" became a catchphrase for a reason but the line of thinking still exists. I watched the "Tollywood" film RRR and it was startling and refreshing how much affection the two mai…

When I was working at Starbucks ages ago, my best friend would come on by regularly. We're both tall men.

Coworkers thought I was gay, and had a sexual relationship with him, because it was and still is a strong bond.

In actuality, Im bisexual, and we weren't in a sexual relationship. But men aren't "allowed" to have close bonds with other men. There are exceptions: military, police, mens social clubs (masons, shriners, etc). Outside of those, society thinks you're just gay.

As for me, I don't particularly care what "society" thinks. I'm not going to trade my agency for some vapid "society groupthink". Did I let my coworkers think I'm gay and dating my best friend? Sure did. And it had a cool other effect - women coworkers treated me more like one of 'them', and was much less defensive than around the other men who worked there.

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