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What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

theatlantic.com

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Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#171

Post by SoftTalker »

lm28469 wrote: post #124
jvm___ wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't always happen though. I feel the most lonely when I'm alone with my wife. We can only have a back and forth conversation on topics that interest her, or the day to day of the house/kids, anything outside those things is just never discussed or is a one-way conversation that just dies. I was friendless and grew up with the same 15 boys until the end of highschool, never fit in. Married the first girl who…

Yeah but then again why would your marry and commit to a "2/10 friend" who doesn't share anything with you ? I know a couple who have been together for close to 20 years, they love being together, talking together, going out together, &c. and they're just thinking about getting married now, and they're only doing it to simplify some paperwork for something unrelated Marriage isn't a checkbox, it's an option if you fi…

When you've never had a really close friend or someone really care about you, 2/10 seems pretty nice in the beginning.

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#172

Post by 0xr0kk3r »

BJBBB wrote: post #120

This is an edge case. Marines in particular, and the military members in general, will form a special bond that can seldom be duplicated elsewhere. And that has been my experience. I was among a group of six that met at the schoolhouse after boot camp. We did not get sent to the same units, but we were all PCS'd to the same base. Two of us (not myself) made a career of the corps, and the others went to school after s…

"seldom duplicated elsewhere"

I hear this same sentiment from marines, cops, fireman, and fraternity members. I also hear it from Masons, Elks, Shriners, etc.

I don't understand why men have to think they've "discovered" something about lifelong bonds that is exclusive to just men's clubs. My guess is that men are taught not to have strong emotional bonds with anyone but their mothers or wives, and then think it is something magical when they are allowed to have these feelings under the guise of life-threatening situations, or secular drinking clubs.

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#173

Post by Barrin92 »

This is really yet another article that stumbles over the artificiality of the American nuclear families. Not just friendships, but kinship and familial relations in most cultures on earth right now are already the center of life.

This idea of the marriage partner as quasi-mystical figure in the center of your life was cooked up not so long ago. In most places marriage is practical, arranged for reproduction, and people are embedded in wide networks of friend and kinship relations. If your whole life centers around your spouse, you are the WEIRD one (https://weirdpeople.fas.harvard.edu/qa-weird)

Also funnily enough of course even in the Western classical tradition the most iconic relationship is the male companionship. Hephaestion and Alexander, Achilles and Patroclus. The Iliad's not exactly La La Land.

Another one of my favorite pieces on the topic comes from Vonnegut, a little too long to paste: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/300997-ok-now-let-s-have-so...

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#174

Post by thomastjeffery »

mellosouls wrote: post #123
thomastjeffery wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: There is more than one kind of relationship! It's exhausting to constantly hear about romantic commitment as if it's the barometer for all relationships . That's absurd! Did it truly never cross your mind that a person can have more than one meaningful relationship in their lives? No wonder people are so lonely! You don't need one or the other: you can participate in a close…

you can participate in a close friendship and casual sex. You can have several of each. The casual sex "choice" doesn't apply to the majority of adults (most straight men don't have the option of multiple sex partners, most women don't want them) so it's difficult to see its relevance here. If you mean throughout their life rather than concurrently, that doesn't really affect the idea that marriage itself is of speci…

> The casual sex "choice" doesn't apply to the majority of adults (most straight men don't have the option of multiple sex partners, most women don't want them) so it's difficult to see its relevance here.

How much of that is social expectation? I can see the circular reasoning here: can I get out?

That is a challenge. Social expectations set boundaries: changing those boundaries takes a lot of work. It's still possible, though. To me, it's worth the effort.

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#175

Post by forty »

cm2012 wrote: post #148
forty wrote: post #108

I never thought marriage was at the center of life, and I'm a bit surprised to think some people think that way. In my book marriage is a contract whose main purpose is to agree on what will happen when the spouse divorce (which happens for more than 45% of marriages in my country, and growing). It's not clear to me why it should be a the center of anything, and of life especially. Friendship on the other hand feels…

That's such a weird way of thinking to me. I'm not saying you're wrong, it's just super alien.

I understand, that's kind of my feeling from the other point of view too. I guess it's complicated stuff, probably often very linked to spiritual and/or religious beliefs too, so it's probably hard to really understand how others are feeling about it if you are not thinking similarly.

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#176

Post by vorpalhex »

thomastjeffery wrote: post #59
dash2 wrote: post #23

As advanced countries' systems for marriage and child-rearing continue to fail, there is a constant demand for cope. What if we learned to love being single? What if we substitute friendship for marriage? 64 ways to enjoy retirement on your own! This is the collective version of listening to an alcoholic explain why he doesn't have a problem.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: There is more than one kind of relationship! It's exhausting to constantly hear about romantic commitment as if it's the barometer for all relationships . That's absurd! Did it truly never cross your mind that a person can have more than one meaningful relationship in their lives? No wonder people are so lonely! You don't need one or the other: you can participate in a close…

Sure, you can have a bunch of friends and sex partners.

Those can never fulfill what a life partner is.

Friends are great. Casual sex can be great. Neither of those give you someone who is so close to you they become part of your identity.

Casual sex especially can be deceiving if one person is using that as a vehicle for emotional investment and the other isn't. That's how people get deeply hurt.

Relationships end. Even the most loved partner eventually dies. Your friendships and casual sex friend relationships probably end more frequently, are shorter and never have the chance for depth.

Maybe you find the right person and get deep quickly, but that's like giving up a savings account hoping to win the lottery.

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#177

Post by jollyllama »

dash2 wrote: post #23

As advanced countries' systems for marriage and child-rearing continue to fail, there is a constant demand for cope. What if we learned to love being single? What if we substitute friendship for marriage? 64 ways to enjoy retirement on your own! This is the collective version of listening to an alcoholic explain why he doesn't have a problem.

What if fixing friendship fixed marriage as well in an indirect way that is difficult to predict or accept now?

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#178

Post by archagon »

dash2 wrote: post #23

As advanced countries' systems for marriage and child-rearing continue to fail, there is a constant demand for cope. What if we learned to love being single? What if we substitute friendship for marriage? 64 ways to enjoy retirement on your own! This is the collective version of listening to an alcoholic explain why he doesn't have a problem.

I think it’s deeply sad that people expect to be consumed by a marriage as a culmination of their social life, rather than having it be just one of multiple co-equal familial relationships. (Close friends, relatives.)

Framing this as “cope” (why the Reddit language?) just spits in the face of friendship.

Re: What If Friendship, Not Marriage, Was at the Center of Life?

#180

Post by mjh2539 »

nineplay wrote: post #140
NoZebra120vClip wrote: post #17

As June rolled around today, I was just reflecting on the history of sexuality, and the philosophical shift that has occurred relatively recently, from "lifestyle" to "orientation" to "identity" and all that comes with it. People in the past did not consider themselves to have sexual orientations, to be gay or straight or something else. Even someone who was committed to a same-sex romantic relationship wouldn't have…

I think there has been a terrible loss that is rarely acknowledged in that men in the western world can no longer have intimate friendships without having to defend their sexual orientation. Seinfeld's "Not that there's anything wrong with that" became a catchphrase for a reason but the line of thinking still exists. I watched the "Tollywood" film RRR and it was startling and refreshing how much affection the two mai…

https://www.firstthings.com/article/2014/03/against-heterose...

For “heterosexuals” in particular, getting close to a friend of the same sex ends up seeming perverse, and being moved by his or her beauty feels queer. To avoid being mistaken for gay, these days many self-proclaimed straight people—men especially—settle for superficial associations with their comrades and reserve the sort of costly intimacy that once characterized such chaste same-sex relationships for their romantic partners alone. Their ostensibly normal sexual orientation cheats them out of an essential aspect of human flourishing: deep friendship.>>

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