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EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

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Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#841

Post by musicale »

abenga wrote: post #776
musicale wrote: post #761

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Imagine you didnt have law on shape and voltage of ordinsry power plugs in a house, and if you buy a samsung power socket to ibstall in your house, you mist buy samsung fridge and samsung washing machine and samsung hair dryer You seem to be conflating the wall socket with the on-device socket . I have several AC powered devices that use the same wall socket plug but have different on-device sockets - some with ver…

> You seem to be conflating the wall socket with the on-device socket. And the intent of the law is to bring the uniformity that exists in wall sockets to the on-device sockets.

Perhaps that's a clearer version of what PP was trying to say? But the analogy doesn't hold up well, because:

1. There are currently several kinds of wall power voltages and plugs/receptacles commonly in use the US. Notable examples are the various 220-240V NEMA receptacles and the various 110-120V receptacles such as polarized 2-prong, unpolarized 2-prong, and 3-prong/grounded.

2. Although there are code requirements (e.g requiring that new outlets be grounded and polarized, or requiring ground fault protection in bathrooms) it doesn't appear that they mandate a particular plug or receptacle design (?) Though the NEMA (trade association) developed plugs can and do conform to the code requirements.

3. Power cords and on-device sockets aren't entirely standardized, but it's not nearly as big a deal as if there were dozens of 110-120V wall socket types rather than the three in common use.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#842

Post by MichaelZuo »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #838
MichaelZuo wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People keep repeating this but how frequently do USB C ports actually break? Even if the real rate was only 1 in a thousand devices, that's still a serious burden for the unlucky few. Whereas for lightning connectors, it's trivial to dislodge.

You need to look at overall failure rate, not just that one specific type of failure can only happen to USB-C.

Why?

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#843

Post by Dylan16807 »

MichaelZuo wrote: post #842
Dylan16807 wrote: post #838

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need to look at overall failure rate, not just that one specific type of failure can only happen to USB-C.

Why?

Because we're talking about which one is more durable.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#844

Post by joenathanone »

adrr wrote: post #820
midoridensha wrote: post #783

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That's a really strange thing to see here on HN. Where did you get this idea? Why is this strange? I see this kind of ignorant nonsense here all the time. This site is absolutely full of software people who, because of Dunning-Kruger, think they're experts at everything technical. Electrical engineering isn't that far from the software world (computers are electrical, and their design is within the EE world), so sof…

I guess you never been in a data center in the last 10 years. All modern DCs run on DC power because stepping down voltage is easy and 95%+ efficient. Why do we backhaul electricity across the country by DC and convert into AC to our house and then back into DC for our stuff? Add renewable energy generation like solar cells and battery storage and AC makes no sense. Theres a reason why china is spinning up DC power g…

Data Centers that use DC still have AC to the racks, then a UPS or similar device converts to DC and distributes to the equipment on the rack. DC is inefficient for long distance, unless you are talking HVDC which is another story and it is disingenuous to act like they are comparable.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#845

Post by rektide »

jfengel wrote: post #827
rektide wrote: post #774

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Three phase to the home?! Whaattt?! If you want to rectify yourself some DC power, 3-phase is awesome. Are there three phase sockets available? I'd think you could build things like high power audio amplifiers or power supplies at radically better price points, if this were actually usable from the wall in places.

How is 3-phase better for rectifying? Is it because it's easier with them 120 degrees out of phase rather than 180?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rectifier#/media/File:3_phase_... shows the visual of what full-wave 3-phase rectification is. Note how very low the ripple is between the high and the low of these peaks.

3 phase is 120 degrees out of phase. Wall power only has a single phase, 360 degrees. Via +/- rectification the situation gets more complex. The key thing, as the other commenter points out, is that there is always always power available. Where-as with wall-power you literally drop to zero voltage as you go + to - & back.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#846

Post by hef19898 »

dghlsakjg wrote: post #831
hef19898 wrote: post #791

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And a look in enineering literature and norms, EN for example, woupd tell you thatvall those different screw types, from heads and pitches to strength and surface treatment, are, in fact, stabdardized and normed. And of course you can get custom parts for everything. Those are, as the name implies, custom and not standard.

The point is that EN standards are set by industry, not government. This is a reply to a comment about supposed government regulations around what a screw is allowed to be.

And they are based, after having replaced a bunch of national predecessors like DIN, on an EU regulation providing the legal basis for them.

Ehich makes Apples bahvior even worse, litterally everybody else managed to agree on common standards, but thay had to insist on proprietary tech to the point they got their set of legislation.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#847

Post by throwaway2990 »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #839
throwaway2990 wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact there are different cables is what makes USB-C stupid. Do you think a mum and dad at home know the difference? My dad had a USB-C cable for his android tablet. When I got him an iPad he tried using the same cable. It wouldn’t change. That makes the whole point of USB-C pointless Defending the stupidness of USB-C cables just makes you a fanboy.

> The fact there are different cables is what makes USB-C stupid. If you pretend you only need 60 watts, there is only one kind of cable. > My dad had a USB-C cable for his android tablet. When I got him an iPad he tried using the same cable. It wouldn’t change. That makes the whole point of USB-C pointless That wasn't because of multiple kinds of cable. That was defective equipment. They're not the same problem.

No. The cable charges 1 device but not the other. That is because the whole USB-C spec is trash.

Why do you so desperately try to defend rubbish hardware like USB-C?

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#848

Post by throwaway2990 »

crote wrote: post #799
throwaway2990 wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact there are different cables is what makes USB-C stupid. Do you think a mum and dad at home know the difference? My dad had a USB-C cable for his android tablet. When I got him an iPad he tried using the same cable. It wouldn’t change. That makes the whole point of USB-C pointless Defending the stupidness of USB-C cables just makes you a fanboy.

You mean like how there are different cables for HDMI, DisplayPort, or even a regular power cord? The biggest problem is that manufacturers don't follow the spec . You are supposed to physically label the cable with its capabilities, but literally nobody bothers to do so.

Cos once you plug your tv you’re totally gonna be like oh now let’s use that hdmi/display port on this other tv in the other room. Now let’s use it on the monitor. Back to the other tv.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#849

Post by Dylan16807 »

throwaway2990 wrote: post #847
Dylan16807 wrote: post #839

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact there are different cables is what makes USB-C stupid. If you pretend you only need 60 watts, there is only one kind of cable. > My dad had a USB-C cable for his android tablet. When I got him an iPad he tried using the same cable. It wouldn’t change. That makes the whole point of USB-C pointless That wasn't because of multiple kinds of cable. That was defective equipment. They're not the same problem.

No. The cable charges 1 device but not the other. That is because the whole USB-C spec is trash. Why do you so desperately try to defend rubbish hardware like USB-C?

It's not the spec's fault.

I'm not defending the defective hardware.

The cable, or one of the devices involved, isn't following the spec.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#850

Post by tankenmate »

detourdog wrote: post #830
tankenmate wrote: post #823

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's called the "Made for iPhone" program; if your device doesn't comply and you don't pay Apple then your lightning port cable / device is limited in the power it can draw / supply (1A @ 5v I think), and data speeds (480Mbps from memory). It has a yearly fee as well as a per connector fee (so pass through cables attract double that cost); it used to be USD4 per connector but that was nearly 10 year ago so it's proba…

I don't have a problem with vendors doing this. I prefer standards but since one side of the cable is a standard I think it is fine. Implementing ports cost money . Developing for Apple customers costs money. One can choose their market based on costs. I understand the lightening standard show it's age and is in need of an upgrade. Why the EU is involved in the decision making process is lost to me.

The EU's stance is primarily about e-waste, and secondarily about lower costs through competition. Having one standard does a good job of achieving both; lower costs through economies of scale, and less waste because when you get a new phone you don't need to replace all your accessories. It's not perfect but it is better than the alternatives.

Having one gate keeper (for example "Made for iPhone" USDx per device / cable) profiting off this isn't good and isn't conscionable from a public policy perspective; it would amount to a private benefit imposed tax.

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