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EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

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Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#771

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny enough, if Micro-USB has been mandated by the EU, Lightning wouldn't even exist and everyone would have been stuck with the IMHO chunky Micro-USB.

Micro-USB was mandated by the EU. That's a large part of the reason we even have a standardized charging port. This has been enforced since late 2012 (in draft since 2008) and is the reason why Apple had to include the micro-USB adapter in order to sell in the EU. There is no reason for speculation since facts are available on your friendly neighborhood wiki. What we're seeing now is that the law is updated to enforc…

It wasn’t mandated the same way USB-C is today. It had enough flexibility that Apple could implement the superior Lightning connector. If the EU mandated micro-usb the way they are USB-C, Lightning would not have been released.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#772

I think Apple should just make USB-C the norm for iPhones. But the idea that a trans-national government over 750M people should be trying to regulate in this level of detail is just obviously a recipe for disaster. For every one time they successfully push a company to do something correct -- but ultimately trivial, like this thing -- there are going to be 10 cases where some bureaucrat makes a bad decision and they…

> 750M people Where are you getting this figure? It's below 450M AFAIK.

Sorry, just did a quick Google and didn't look past the headline figure. I don't think that it substantially changes the point, but I regret the error.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#773

I think Apple should just make USB-C the norm for iPhones. But the idea that a trans-national government over 750M people should be trying to regulate in this level of detail is just obviously a recipe for disaster. For every one time they successfully push a company to do something correct -- but ultimately trivial, like this thing -- there are going to be 10 cases where some bureaucrat makes a bad decision and they…

or every one time they successfully push a company to do something correct -- but ultimately trivial, like this thing -- there are going to be 10 cases where some bureaucrat makes a bad decision This is a truism, but does it have any basis in reality? Certainly, if every manufacturer were forced to use USB-C for everything it could lead to an innovation problem, but I don't think makers of new products are forbidden…

Have you ever, like, actually interacted with a bureaucracy? I don't mean a governmental one, necessarily. An even mid-sized company's HR department, let's say. I was just trying to get a medical evaluation for my son: I called them and they spent 10 minutes on the phone with me explaining that they were going to send me four emails before they had a 30 minute call with me before they were going to do the actual evaluation of my son. They told me that I could fill out the two surveys in the four emails that they sent me via, and I quote exactly, "A desktop or a laptop or an iPad, but not an iPhone: this is for security reasons."

It's hilarious that your big question is: "Does the idea that bureaucracies routinely make money-and-time-wasting decisions have any basis in reality." You should investigate this reality at some point.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#774
post #735

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And we are stuck on AC which is a terrible and wasteful way to move electricity. How much energy is wasted converting AC to DC?

>> And we are stuck on AC which is a terrible and wasteful way to move electricity. That's a really strange thing to see here on HN. Where did you get this idea? BTW Europe having 3-phase AC to the home is brilliant. Wish we had that in the U.S.

Three phase to the home?! Whaattt?! If you want to rectify yourself some DC power, 3-phase is awesome.

Are there three phase sockets available? I'd think you could build things like high power audio amplifiers or power supplies at radically better price points, if this were actually usable from the wall in places.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#775
post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is an entire product category of "universal power adapters"[1] that wouldn't exist if GP's problem weren't an issue - and that was back when most adapters were just "dumb" power sources that provided a fixed voltage with fixed maximum current. There is no way to combine Micro USB, USBC, Thunderbolt and whatever Microsoft was doing with Surface devices into one adapter without separate electronics for each port.…

As someone who designs device, I would HATE having to use a proprietary connector/device/protocol. I'm small time, so maybe engineering departments at major companies see it differently. Right now I can design a product that uses one of the USB standards and pick from literally thousands of different pre-made parts that handle all the silly things for me. If I'm fine with 5v/2a power, I can just drop a $.0292 (that's…

They can add a second port.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#776

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if the whole world adopted this kind of regulatory stance, there would be much less incentive to invent that better cable because you now have huge regulatory bodies Imagine you didnt have law on shape and voltage of ordinsry power plugs in a house, and if you buy a samsung power socket to ibstall in your house, you mist buy samsung fridge and samsung washing machine and samsung hair dryer

> Imagine you didnt have law on shape and voltage of ordinsry power plugs in a house, and if you buy a samsung power socket to ibstall in your house, you mist buy samsung fridge and samsung washing machine and samsung hair dryer You seem to be conflating the wall socket with the on-device socket . I have several AC powered devices that use the same wall socket plug but have different on-device sockets - some with ver…

> You seem to be conflating the wall socket with the on-device socket.

And the intent of the law is to bring the uniformity that exists in wall sockets to the on-device sockets.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#777
post #118

What happens when there is a better USB-C plug - isn't there a concern that locking into the current standard means in 50 years the EU is still stuck. I imagine we're in uncharted territory given in less then my lifetime USB was invented and has gone through at least 14 iterations e.g. it's been changing very fast. Unfortunately I fear even asking this question probably angers some, but I think it's an interesting qu…

Maybe instead of mandating USB-C, the EU should have said that you can use any connector you want, but whatever you use must be an entirely public domain open standard, with no proprietary extensions allowed whatsoever. Then Apple wouldn't have an incentive to use Lightning anymore, since the only way they'd be allowed to would be to give up its MFi gravy train.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#778

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok. So you can't use the phone while charging. Cool!

They’re saying the phone is always charged, because it charges when you put it down.

It kinda sounds like this is an argument between being disciplined and undisciplined.

The solution is just to remember to put your phone back on your wireless charger and it will be fully charged at all times. Maybe there's some truth to it, but not everyone can remember to put their phone down the same place at all times.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#779

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Furthermore, many USB-C devices that are sold are low quality and can damage devices that are plugged into them by failing to follow the specification (eg delivering too much power)." The simple solution as done elsewwhere across many technical endeavors is to mandate standards, that's why the ISO exists. For example, if I plug a 220/240 Volt appliance into a power wall socket that's rated at either 220 or 240V then…

USB is standardised and yet here we are. It seems to me that somehow those standards aren’t sufficiently well mandated and I don’t really know how to improve the situation. Maybe there is some incentive for the people selling the low quality devices to move to higher quality devices over time (e.g. you get kicked off Amazon less) but that feels pretty weak to me (if better devices are more expensive, you won’t get an…

Many standards owe their origins to some development that few used initially. Again using power as an example, that's how we arrived at the common 110/220V voltage standards we see in use around the world.

Due to common or widespread usage, a facility outgrows its origins and or its patents expire. Thus its original developer is no longer in charge—or can no longer fully manage its ongoing development, which is the current situation with USB (remember it's happened thousands of times before). Governments, though their standards bodies, then step in to protect consumers, etc. by ensuring standards are maintained (weights & measures are a classic case).

We are now seeing the first instances of this intervention process with USB. Unfortunately, the association responsible for USB has not kept up with the times (this usually happens because members cannot agree and the lowest common denominator becomes the released standard).

To make matters worse, USB got off to a bad start, it was a dog of a 'standard' from the outset, for starters it was ridiculously slow, 12mbps if I recall, which was about a fifth the speed it ought to have been given the then state of hardware performance. I recall being at the trade show when it was released and laughing at how slow this 'toy' was, we all joked about it. The trouble is that as this ill-conceived standard started from such a low base that it's never caught up, every release has always been too slow. Moreover, the mechanical aspect of the standard has always been inadequate, USB plugs and sockets are mechanically flimsy and slipshod and of inadequate design.

Unfortunately, as USB has become the widespread standard and seeing that industry has not managed its development well, it's little wonder government has stepped in. What we're now seeing here is just another instance of a well worn pattern.

Edit: just to be clear, if the standard had been managed well then Apple would not be able to offer Apple-specific enhancements as they would not comply with the specification. If the standard falls under a government authority (which is often an ISO), then adhering to the standard is mandatory. The advantage of this is that it puts all manufacturers on a level playing field. If this were the situation here then it would be unlawful for Apple to offer nonstandard USB enhancements.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#780

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> instead of letting countries compete for the best policies. The way we have let manufacturers compete to create the best standard for power adaptors?

I wouldn't agree, we are all living in a system where monopolies are trying to benefit easiest ways, and diverse population tries to eliminate useless gatekeeping by as minimum regulation as possible. The complexity of this "minimum regulation" task always evolves, and not that many countries succeed ever. So in my opinion, EU as a joint effort of _countries_ you mentioned, forced to break this useless monopoly gatek…

Standards are fine, but do they need to be enforced with guns?
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