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EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

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Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#301

Post by crote »

vladvasiliu wrote: post #163
raverbashing wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My usb-c ecig won't charge from that Sounds like a "Fake" usb-c. Actually not fake because the usb-c is the connector, not the standard behind it So I'm not surprised it doesn't charge, it's a "pretend USB-C" thing from China

Sure, as a technically inclined user, I can understand that. It actually is a Chinese brand, but not some one-off brand bought off Ali Express. It's a device bought from a reputable store in France with a name that I've seen around for several years (Vaporesso). Sure, that fact, in and of itself, is not enough to guarantee that corners haven't been cut and that the product is actually up to spec. But, as a random con…

Because USB-C does not have a defined "upstream" and "downstream" side of the cable, a user could connect two chargers together. This is obviously a bad idea.

To prevent this, a USB-C charger is only allowed to provide power on the cable once it senses a downstream device on the other side. A legacy USB-A to USB-C cable always applies power, though, as this does not provide any danger.

Some low-quality brands think they are smart and leave out the two $0.001 resistors needed for the device to advertise itself. This means it will only work with a USB-A to USB-C cable, and not a real USB-C charger.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#302

Post by golemotron »

manuel_w wrote: post #8

The EU stance and strictness on this is one of the things making me happy to be an EU citizen.

> The EU stance and strictness on this is one of the things making me happy to be an EU citizen.

It's going to look funny in a few years after the rest of the world moves to better technology.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#303

Post by joeblubaugh »

belltaco wrote: post #271
frankfrankfrank wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m all for some kind of universality, but this authoritarian method does not strike me as a good idea. You lament their concern with fairness, by giving unfair advantages to the USB-C license holders/patent holders? I’m not even sure people understand that Apple also contributed heavily to the development of USB-C along with other companies, some of them European. The irony is that I believe the Lightning Connector,…

> The irony is that I believe the Lightning Connector, the iPhone connector, has been the longest standing standard connector (11 years now) Not sure how that's irony, since the connector is proprietary and not an open standard, resulting in e-waste and expensive chargers. Your argument would have more weight if they opened it up. Do you think Apple should have done that?

In what way does it generate more e-waste than any other cable? Unless you switch back and forth between iPhone and Android regularly, you’ll need roughly the same number of cables regardless of the platform.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#304

Post by crote »

Gigachad wrote: post #103
dan-robertson wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The general problem with USB-C is that the connectors support multiple different protocols, cables are allowed to not be of sufficient quality for all use-cases (the worst example is probably high-bitrate cases like cables for computer monitors) including high power charging. Similarly, the devices on either end needn’t support all the potential protocols/uses. Furthermore, many USB-C devices that are sold are low qu…

Lightning cables are USB 2.0. I think you'll find every USB-C cable supports the USB 2 feature set.

In theory, yes. The specification mandates that all USB-C cables must have 2.0 wires, but in practice some cheap brands have invented "charge-only" cables which lack them.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#305

Post by crote »

makomk wrote: post #55
henearkr wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What technical progress. Don't you think that 20V and 240W that are the maximum for Power Delivery are enough to fast charge a smartphone? Even laptops use it!

It's not just a question of total power - smartphones have limited space and thermal budget for internal power conversion compared to laptops, which means that the fastest charging option often moves some of the work of converting to the correct voltage to the charger. (Also, I don't think 240W USB PD has really been adopted by anyone currently, and that's a spicy amount of current given the general quality of USB C…

Yes, which is why USB-C supports PPS.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#306

Post by ClumsyPilot »

christophilus wrote: post #228
crote wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The law explicitly states that it has to be reviewed every couple of years to determine whether USB-C it is still the best choice, or there has been sufficient technological progress to warrant a switch to a newer standard. The fear for a "lock-in" is completely unfounded, as the EU previously quasi-mandated Micro USB and switching to USB-C was no issue whatsoever. Besides, nothing is stopping manufacturers from incl…

But if the whole world adopted this kind of regulatory stance, there would be much less incentive to invent that better cable because you now have huge regulatory bodies that may block its adoption and thus mean most of that work was money and time wasted. This kind of thing may tilt the risk / reward of research towards the riskier end of the spectrum. I’m not saying it’s a bad thing— just that it’s not without cons…

> if the whole world adopted this kind of regulatory stance, there would be much less incentive to invent that better cable because you now have huge regulatory bodies

Imagine you didnt have law on shape and voltage of ordinsry power plugs in a house, and if you buy a samsung power socket to ibstall in your house, you mist buy samsung fridge and samsung washing machine and samsung hair dryer

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#307

Post by avar »

crote wrote: post #220
taf2 wrote: post #118

What happens when there is a better USB-C plug - isn't there a concern that locking into the current standard means in 50 years the EU is still stuck. I imagine we're in uncharted territory given in less then my lifetime USB was invented and has gone through at least 14 iterations e.g. it's been changing very fast. Unfortunately I fear even asking this question probably angers some, but I think it's an interesting qu…

The law explicitly states that it has to be reviewed every couple of years to determine whether USB-C it is still the best choice, or there has been sufficient technological progress to warrant a switch to a newer standard. The fear for a "lock-in" is completely unfounded, as the EU previously quasi-mandated Micro USB and switching to USB-C was no issue whatsoever. Besides, nothing is stopping manufacturers from incl…

Couple of years? The only mention I can find of a review is every 5, per[1].

I assumed the directive had some "go with the flow" upgrade path, but after reading the directive I can't see any wording to that effect.

If the USB-IF depreciated USB-C in favor of a USB-X the EU's directive wouldn't change, the only "upgrade path" appears to be that the commission will "asses" whether the directive should be changed every 5 years, starting in 2025.

I think the EU should have done something about Apple's insistence on their own custom connector, which is clearly only there to create a moat at this point.

But it also seems like if we'd had this law 10 years ago we'd still be using micro-USB everywhere.

Who in the EU bureaucracy is going to risk their neck in approving a new connector, which might become the next industry standard, but might also be a rubber stamp approving future Apple-like fragmentation.

1. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv%...

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#308

Post by DRW_ »

viraptor wrote: post #86
kweingar wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I totally agree. The only annoyance I see is that you have to experiment with what cables and power adapters through trial and error to find what works with particular devices. I mentioned in a different reply in this thread that there ought to be some kind of consumer-friendly labeling on these things, so that you can see at a glance what will work with what.

> you have to experiment You don't have to. You can. As the previous comment mentioned, nothing stops you from buying all the accessories and cables from Apple at a premium like you used to with lightning.

Funnily enough, this is why the only USB-C chargers and cables I carry around are my Apple ones - because they've been the only ones that I've been able to reliably trust across all my other devices (including USB-C Apple devices).

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#309

Post by ghaff »

giantrobot wrote: post #290
ghaff wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that people would go to a festival and feel that their experience couldn't be complete without a smartphone or that, if they did feel that way, they wouldn't have made really sure that they had made backup plans for if their phone did run out of juice boggles my mind. People make themselves ridiculously dependent on devices that can run out of power, break, or get lost/stolen.

There's this new feature on some phones that might catch on. They have cameras. Now granted those cameras aren't great, they can only take 20MP photos in low light and record 4K video, but some people are using them as their main camera! It's pretty crazy. Some people that go to festivals or concerts take pictures so I guess for them a bad camera is better than no camera.

It's still ridiculous to stand in a long line to charge your phone so you can take crappy photos or video instead of actually enjoying the festival. And smartphones are pretty crappy for concert-type photography.

(People can obviously do whatever they want. I simply find that someone degrading their experience so they can take photos of some festival that probably has zillions of higher quality stills and footage online hard to understand.)

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#310

Post by crote »

megous wrote: post #248
makomk wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just a question of total power - smartphones have limited space and thermal budget for internal power conversion compared to laptops, which means that the fastest charging option often moves some of the work of converting to the correct voltage to the charger. (Also, I don't think 240W USB PD has really been adopted by anyone currently, and that's a spicy amount of current given the general quality of USB C…

Battery in the phone needs ~4.2V for charging. So you need conversion in the phone no matter what voltage you supply on the USB port.

It depends. USB-C supports PPS, which allows the charged device to request a specific voltage, so conversion is no longer needed.

The specification does mandate that the device must be able to fall back to a static voltage if the charger does not support PPS, though. But in practice a device could totally require PPS for fast charging, and only do trickle charging with a non-PPS charger.

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