EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones • Hacker News Board

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#261

Post by belltaco » Sun, May 07, 2023, 1:08 PM UTC

rkagerer wrote: post #249

stephc_int13 wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Standards are good for everyone, even when very old and seemingly outdated. Being "locked" on a a few not awful standard connectors is a good thing. The Edison screw bulb is very simple, reliable, still used today even if I am sure that many companies would have invented more sophisticated standards over the years, I am glad they did not. I still use audio jack connectors as much as possible, and I think that the wor…

But weren't those standards defacto? I share your penchant for the shape of a bulb socket and purposely bought a phone that still provides an audio jack... but afaik regulators never dictated those shapes.

Maybe gas pump sizes at gas stations are a better example?

I see pump dimensions in the law here but don't know if there was traditional regulation on fuel pumps being compatible.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/40/80.22

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#262

Post by nonethewiser » Sun, May 07, 2023, 1:09 PM UTC

epolanski wrote: post #222

rocketbop wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The regulations get updated, you aren't stuck on usb-c. Isn't there a chicken and egg problem there - no one will release products with new power interfaces, because they aren't releasable in Europe. I suppose such products might get released first in the US, but which large tech company if going to ignore the EU market when releasing important products?

> Isn't there a chicken and egg problem there - no one will release products with new power interfaces Yes, that's the point. Instead of anyone releasing products with new power interfaces the goal is to have industry-wide discussion on adopting new standards for everyone. I think it's reasonable and only a positive thing. If the industry will decide that USB-C isn't enough they will revise the standard.

> the goal is to have industry-wide discussion on adopting new standards for everyone.

That’s not part of the regulation whatsoever

> If the industry will decide that USB-C isn't enough they will revise the standard.

But the industry doesn’t come together and pick a standard. The EU did. The closest industries came to picking a standard were freely choosing from many different formats that emerged.

Imagine what it would take for the executives at Apple, Samsung, Motorola, etc. to come together and all agree on some new format that perhaps one of them developed. Now consider that the EU would still have to approve it. The conclusion made from that Herculean effort might just be null and void. Also consider that this sounds a lot like is collusion. These companies would never get as far as sitting down with each other and are even less likely with this EU regulation.

What’s worse is this all completely subjugates new players, who may be more likely to innovate and which can’t abuse any existing user base, to the current phone market. They would never have a seat at the table.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#263

Post by viraptor » Sun, May 07, 2023, 1:10 PM UTC

nonethewiser wrote: post #241

crote wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The law explicitly states that it has to be reviewed every couple of years to determine whether USB-C it is still the best choice, or there has been sufficient technological progress to warrant a switch to a newer standard. The fear for a "lock-in" is completely unfounded, as the EU previously quasi-mandated Micro USB and switching to USB-C was no issue whatsoever. Besides, nothing is stopping manufacturers from incl…

> The law explicitly states that it has to be reviewed every couple of years to determine whether USB-C it is still the best choice, or there has been sufficient technological progress to warrant a switch to a newer standard. But under these rules, wouldn’t that necessitate that a new standard develops and becomes the more popular one despite not being used because it can’t be sold in all the places that ban non USB…

> it can’t be sold in all the places that ban non USB C? How would you imagine that happening?

The same way it happened for microusb->usb-C. Think of the law as more of a "get along shirt" applied to misbehaving kids/companies than a specific ban/enforcement. The big players can still decide on a new standard and start using it.

The process would be something like this: someone has a need that usb-C connector can't solve, some working group makes a new connector, large phone producers agree to start using it, they start using it.

Also, just like with usb-C, we'd most likely see the new connector on the laptops before the phones. If some new capability is needed, phones are unlikely to be the initial devices to need it (given low power / small size)

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#264

Post by nicoburns » Sun, May 07, 2023, 1:10 PM UTC

nonethewiser wrote: post #241

crote wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The law explicitly states that it has to be reviewed every couple of years to determine whether USB-C it is still the best choice, or there has been sufficient technological progress to warrant a switch to a newer standard. The fear for a "lock-in" is completely unfounded, as the EU previously quasi-mandated Micro USB and switching to USB-C was no issue whatsoever. Besides, nothing is stopping manufacturers from incl…

> The law explicitly states that it has to be reviewed every couple of years to determine whether USB-C it is still the best choice, or there has been sufficient technological progress to warrant a switch to a newer standard. But under these rules, wouldn’t that necessitate that a new standard develops and becomes the more popular one despite not being used because it can’t be sold in all the places that ban non USB…

I suspect in practice it would mean that the new standard would have to be backwards compatible with the old one to start with.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#265

Post by prmoustache » Sun, May 07, 2023, 1:10 PM UTC

TheLoafOfBread wrote: post #110

rmm wrote: post #97

I just realised I rarely plug a cable into my phone at all these days. Genuinely I think the last time I did was in a hire car that only had cable CarPlay. At my desk I got a wireless charger as well as my bed side. Data is over the cloud now etc Serious question how long until they drop the port full stop? Like what if they achieve serious wireless charging speeds And actually does anyone know if that’s allowed with…

How do you handle situation when you want to use your phone while charging it? Then you need to hold it together with charging pad which must not move otherwise your charging speed will drop significantly, which is synonymous to have it connected to the charger, but with much finicky "connector"

You guys have weird use cases.

My smartphone charges while I am asleep. I can't see a good reason to charge a phone during the day unless you are using gps navigation all day. That is the only usagr that drain battery a lot. But in this case that is usually because you are driving so the phone can be plugged easily.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#266

Post by frankfrankfrank » Sun, May 07, 2023, 1:10 PM UTC

crote wrote: post #237

frankfrankfrank wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m all for some kind of universality, but this authoritarian method does not strike me as a good idea. You lament their concern with fairness, by giving unfair advantages to the USB-C license holders/patent holders? I’m not even sure people understand that Apple also contributed heavily to the development of USB-C along with other companies, some of them European. The irony is that I believe the Lightning Connector,…

USB is managed by a nonprofit, and the specification is freely available for anyone to use. You do not need to pay them anything to make a USB device, nor do you need their permission for it. You do need to pay them a (very reasonable) yearly fee if you wish to use the USB logo on your product though, and this includes agreeing to subject your product to compliance testing. As far as standards bodies go, USB is just…

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Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#267

Post by tankenmate » Sun, May 07, 2023, 1:11 PM UTC

frankfrankfrank wrote: post #250

vidarh wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU tried the soft approach for many years, and Apple stubbornly refused to play. "This authoritarian method" of representing the populations they are meant to represent as part of a democratic society rather than letting companies continue to do what they want came with ample warning. EDIT: Someone asked about the mandate for it, and deleted, but worth pointing out that the EU parliament supported this with a maj…

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Apple refused to implement mirco-USB when the EU issued guidelines to use USB because of electronic waste. Apple refused to even talk to the EU about it. So with Apple refusing to engage with the elected representatives of the EU then the EU got to the point of having to force Apple to engage; legislation.

TLDR: The EU wanted less e-waste. Apple refused to engage, so the EU forced them to engage or leave.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#268

Post by elliottkember » Sun, May 07, 2023, 1:11 PM UTC

meindnoch wrote: post #192

nehal3m wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I usually charge phones wirelessly, and since I built the charger into my desk it's easy to pick up the phone, do what I want to do, and put it back down again. There's no friction at all, so unless you want extended use there's no issue. I rarely even think about charging it anymore.

Ok. So you can't use the phone while charging. Cool!

They’re saying the phone is always charged, because it charges when you put it down.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#269

Post by Vespasian » Sun, May 07, 2023, 1:12 PM UTC

whywhywhywhy wrote: post #106

rmm wrote: post #97

I just realised I rarely plug a cable into my phone at all these days. Genuinely I think the last time I did was in a hire car that only had cable CarPlay. At my desk I got a wireless charger as well as my bed side. Data is over the cloud now etc Serious question how long until they drop the port full stop? Like what if they achieve serious wireless charging speeds And actually does anyone know if that’s allowed with…

>Serious question how long until they drop the port full stop? Probably in 2 years if it allows a loophole where a proprietary $100 charger works better than generic. Their stance on this issue has shown that dongleification design culture has won over user experience design culture within the Apple walls.

If I recall correctly the EU explicitly and intentionally excempted wireless charging from this regulation.

The argument was that this technology is not yet mature enough to standardize and should be allowed extra time to develop further.

They remarked that in the future additional laws may be introduced if required.

This was a clear warning directed at the industry (read Apple) to find a common solution for wireless charging without additional regulations.

If they are unable to do so the EU is ready for round two.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#270

Post by frankfrankfrank » Sun, May 07, 2023, 1:13 PM UTC

epolanski wrote: post #211

frankfrankfrank wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m all for some kind of universality, but this authoritarian method does not strike me as a good idea. You lament their concern with fairness, by giving unfair advantages to the USB-C license holders/patent holders? I’m not even sure people understand that Apple also contributed heavily to the development of USB-C along with other companies, some of them European. The irony is that I believe the Lightning Connector,…

I don't think this is in any way authoritarian, no one's personal freedom is at stake here. The regulation is for hardware companies, not you. There is no "unfair advantage" to USB-C patent holders, it's a standard that the industry settled on in a cooperative fashion in which Apple was itself a major player. No one prevented the industry from working on a "patent-free" different standard. Point is, you can't and sho…

It never crossed your mind that there may be a reason that Apple does not want to use the USB-C standard for all its disadvantages over the lightning connector that they have now had for 11 years. Apple has had two types of plugs over 20 years now. Can you say that about Nokia? Samsung? Etc?