New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings • Hacker News Board

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#451

Post by downut » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 10:18 PM UTC

nonethewiser wrote: post #398

downut wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am curious how one pops popcorn, shakes a pan, throws the pan, and heats the sides of the pan when eg reducing stock. How do woks work, exactly, on an induction burner? Why does spilling liquids cause the problems I encountered? Why does the bottom of the pans have to be perfectly flat? Some of my cast iron skillets (whoops never mind) are 50 years or more old and are not perfectly flat. They cook fantastic on a ga…

Charring peppers

Yeah, those bbq baskets advertised for grilling vegetables are sensational for charring Anaheims and Poblanos over a big gas burner. Bell peppers become a no brainer. No problem at all to do a much better job getting the skins off than those roller things out in front of the grocery stores in the fall. I can do about 8 at a time.

The rest of the responses, hoo boy, I think I live on a different planet.

Overselling my competence... amusing, because my view of my own skills is that after 40 years of building on what appears to in hindsight have been an extraordinarily well chosen set of parents I might just now begin to understand how the best kitchens work.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#452

Post by robocat » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 10:21 PM UTC

cogman10 wrote: post #285

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #166

I don't often like to take a "both sides" approach when assessing specific issues, but this one just seems to highlight the stupidity, or at the very least shortsightedness, of both sides. On one hand, for those pushing for a ban, this seems largely performative, a la banning plastic straws. Gas is used for 2 main reasons: for cooking, where it represents a miniscule amount of overall energy use, and for heating, whe…

There are more reasons to ban gas in buildings than just global warming. There's the fact that you are actually burning fuel, which released noxious fumes into the home [1]. There's mounting evidence that this sort of exposure has pretty negative health implications [2] Gas is also inherently dangerous, more-so than electricity. There's been more than a few examples of exploded homes/buildings due to gas leaks [3]. A…

Here’s a house that was turned to kindling by a gas explosion: http://www.nzpdg.org.nz/news/details/cause-revealed-of-gas-e... https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/114388788/gas-contractor-wh... “[the gas fitter] had not isolated the gas supply to the fire he was part-way through repairing, and he failed to tell the residents not to turn the main gas supply back on”. Of course you would want to analyse the relative risks of gas versus electricity.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#453

Post by dschuler » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 10:24 PM UTC

SoftTalker wrote: post #439

greedo wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the same reason that they can say not to use lead paint, or asbestos siding...

Basic chemistry, burning methane cleanly produces water and CO2. Neither is anywhere near as dangerous as lead or asbestos.

It does produce a little bit of CO and NOx as well, but newer furnaces control the air mixture to keep those pretty low.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#454

Post by pathartl » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 10:25 PM UTC

SoftTalker wrote: post #439

greedo wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the same reason that they can say not to use lead paint, or asbestos siding...

Basic chemistry, burning methane cleanly produces water and CO2. Neither is anywhere near as dangerous as lead or asbestos.

Yes, but natural gas isn't pure methane and CO2 isn't good for the brain. Burning something without a vented hood in a closed space can be incredibly dangerous. Especially if you're talking about high rise apartment buildings where... well... hot gas rises.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#455

Post by iamdamian » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 10:26 PM UTC

rlg2161 wrote: post #444

iamdamian wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you saying that if we got rid of all gas burning appliances in homes, that would not have much effect on climate change? Yes. (Also, I welcome strong evidence to the contrary.)

For the average American, 4 devices in their home - water heaters, furnaces, stoves and gas powered clothes driers - account 95% of residential emissions [1]. Residential energy use accounts for ~20% of US annual carbon emissions [2]. The 2nd figure accounts for carbon footprint of electricity generation used in the home as well as gas combusted in the home. The 4th chart from [1] suggests this is about a 50/50 split…

I appreciate you digging up this information, this is exactly what's been lacking in press coverage of the issue.

If you're telling me that fully eliminating gas stoves in the U.S. (something that will not happen in our lifetimes and will come at great political and personal cost) is going to reduce U.S.-specific emissions by just 1%, I think I'm even more convinced that this regulation should not have been passed.

What am I missing?

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#456

Post by pathartl » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 10:27 PM UTC

the_gastropod wrote: post #422

annexrichmond wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can’t people make safety decisions for themselves? Many people will choose electric/induction stoves, or not rent an apartment with a gas stove. But many people do prefer it, and I don’t think it should be up to you or the government whether something is “good” for them or not.

For one reason, your decision to use a gas stove affects all the people who live within proximity of you. Everyone’s air quality could be affected, and everyone’s risk of carbon monoxide poisoning increases, and everyone’s risk of fire increases. No one is an island.

I think they're missing the point that the ban is for New York. You know, one of the most densely populated areas in the country?

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#457

Post by ravenstine » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 10:27 PM UTC

ahoy wrote: post #445

iamdamian wrote: post #365

This regulation feels quite frustrating to me, and several comments in this thread illustrate why. This change is being promoted as a critical step in the fight against climate change. (See most news articles over the past two years covering this.) But when you dig into the details, it seems like the regulation may not have much effect on climate change at all. When you point this out to advocates, you'll get an enti…

I _rent_ a home, as do a full half of new york state residents. I'd love an electric stove. Every rental I've ever lived in has a gas stove and no fume hood. The full half of new yorkers who rent - almost 20 million people - mostly get whatever theirlandlord picked. So when I read posts like this, decrying government overreach, I wonder if you've ever been poor? Have you ever lived here? Do you know what youre talkin…

Uhhh... woe is you? Plenty of non-poor people live with gas stoves, often without fume hoods, and even prefer gas. Not once have I ever felt ill or victimized because I had to cook on gas.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#458

Post by bentlegen » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 10:27 PM UTC

speakfreely wrote: post #443

bentlegen wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So because nuclear or other solutions can’t “immediately” be stepped up (debatable, but it doesn’t matter), we should not bother to create the circumstances in which they would become beneficial? This go-nowhere attitude and is why people can’t take fossil fuel apologists seriously.

You mis-characterized me. I actually identify as a nuclear energy apologist. Nothing would make me more happy than to see nuclear energy sources being fast tracked.

I don’t think I’ve mischaracterized anything, unless you’re telling me that you didn’t mean to paint this effort as meaningless posturing by ineffective environmentalists that would only have negative results.

If nothing would make you happier, make that point in your comment. “Maybe this will make a difference in 20 years” or “nuclear advancement is what we need” would completely change the tone.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#459

Post by pclmulqdq » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 10:27 PM UTC

ahoy wrote: post #445

iamdamian wrote: post #365

This regulation feels quite frustrating to me, and several comments in this thread illustrate why. This change is being promoted as a critical step in the fight against climate change. (See most news articles over the past two years covering this.) But when you dig into the details, it seems like the regulation may not have much effect on climate change at all. When you point this out to advocates, you'll get an enti…

I _rent_ a home, as do a full half of new york state residents. I'd love an electric stove. Every rental I've ever lived in has a gas stove and no fume hood. The full half of new yorkers who rent - almost 20 million people - mostly get whatever theirlandlord picked. So when I read posts like this, decrying government overreach, I wonder if you've ever been poor? Have you ever lived here? Do you know what youre talkin…

I hope you don't use that stove to cook, because if you do, you are putting hundreds of times more harmful particulates into the air than the stove puts out alone.

This is the same kind of "green"-feeling hypocrisy as the plastic bag bans. After Australia banned plastic bags, they found an increased amount of plastic in their landfills. Why? Because people used to re-use them as trash bags and were now buying much thicker dedicated plastic bags for the purpose.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#460

Post by parineum » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 10:28 PM UTC

ahoy wrote: post #445

iamdamian wrote: post #365

This regulation feels quite frustrating to me, and several comments in this thread illustrate why. This change is being promoted as a critical step in the fight against climate change. (See most news articles over the past two years covering this.) But when you dig into the details, it seems like the regulation may not have much effect on climate change at all. When you point this out to advocates, you'll get an enti…

I _rent_ a home, as do a full half of new york state residents. I'd love an electric stove. Every rental I've ever lived in has a gas stove and no fume hood. The full half of new yorkers who rent - almost 20 million people - mostly get whatever theirlandlord picked. So when I read posts like this, decrying government overreach, I wonder if you've ever been poor? Have you ever lived here? Do you know what youre talkin…

> almost 20 million people - mostly get whatever theirlandlord picked. So when I read posts like this, decrying government overreach...

What's the purpose of an outright ban then? Why not just ban it from rental properties?

> I wonder if you've ever been poor?

What do you think the median income for home ownsership is? I'm sure you make plenty of money more than most homeowners if you're renting in New York.