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New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

nytimes.com

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Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#421

Post by zbrozek »

iamdamian wrote: post #396
seanalltogether wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But when you dig into the details, it seems like the change may not have much effect on climate change at all. Are you saying that if we got rid of all gas burning appliances in homes, that would not have much effect on climate change?

> Are you saying that if we got rid of all gas burning appliances in homes, that would not have much effect on climate change? Yes. (Also, I welcome strong evidence to the contrary.)

Space heating matters and everything else is basically noise.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#422

Post by the_gastropod »

annexrichmond wrote: post #330
cogman10 wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are more reasons to ban gas in buildings than just global warming. There's the fact that you are actually burning fuel, which released noxious fumes into the home [1]. There's mounting evidence that this sort of exposure has pretty negative health implications [2] Gas is also inherently dangerous, more-so than electricity. There's been more than a few examples of exploded homes/buildings due to gas leaks [3]. A…

Why can’t people make safety decisions for themselves? Many people will choose electric/induction stoves, or not rent an apartment with a gas stove. But many people do prefer it, and I don’t think it should be up to you or the government whether something is “good” for them or not.

For one reason, your decision to use a gas stove affects all the people who live within proximity of you. Everyone’s air quality could be affected, and everyone’s risk of carbon monoxide poisoning increases, and everyone’s risk of fire increases.

No one is an island.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#423

Post by indymike »

jablongo wrote: post #202
lumb63 wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+1 regarding cooking gas being a minuscule amount of gas usage overall. And not to mention, gas is still the first choice for most serious cooks, so the small benefit comes at relatively large cost to lifestyle. Regarding heat pumps phasing out gas heat, in NY it isn’t feasible. It gets too cold. In more temperate climates, sure, but in the northern US and further, there will be a need for on-demand heat for a long t…

> Regarding heat pumps phasing out gas heat, in NY it isn’t feasible. It gets too cold. Not true, heat pumps are widely used as primary heat sources in environments as cold or colder than NY, like in Montreal and other parts of Canada. The take that heat pump tech only works in very moderate temperatures is stale at this point.

> Not true, heat pumps are widely used as primary heat sources in environments as cold or colder than NY, like in Montreal and other parts of Canada.

As the owner of a 5 year old heat pump in a milder climate in Indiana, I can tell you this:

* When it is under 10°F, my heat pump switches to emergency heat... forced air electric and is very expensive to run. * Often the temperature swings are pretty wild... 40-50 degrees and that also can force emergency heat.

Oh, and since the electric company is usually using gas to generate the electricity, isn't the environmental impact somewhat of a wash?

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#424

Post by SoftTalker »

cogman10 wrote: post #285
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #166

I don't often like to take a "both sides" approach when assessing specific issues, but this one just seems to highlight the stupidity, or at the very least shortsightedness, of both sides. On one hand, for those pushing for a ban, this seems largely performative, a la banning plastic straws. Gas is used for 2 main reasons: for cooking, where it represents a miniscule amount of overall energy use, and for heating, whe…

There are more reasons to ban gas in buildings than just global warming. There's the fact that you are actually burning fuel, which released noxious fumes into the home [1]. There's mounting evidence that this sort of exposure has pretty negative health implications [2] Gas is also inherently dangerous, more-so than electricity. There's been more than a few examples of exploded homes/buildings due to gas leaks [3]. A…

How many homes have burned down because of faulty wiring for electric stoves vs the number that have exploded due to leaking gas stoves?

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#425

Post by dschuler »

cogman10 wrote: post #285
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #166

I don't often like to take a "both sides" approach when assessing specific issues, but this one just seems to highlight the stupidity, or at the very least shortsightedness, of both sides. On one hand, for those pushing for a ban, this seems largely performative, a la banning plastic straws. Gas is used for 2 main reasons: for cooking, where it represents a miniscule amount of overall energy use, and for heating, whe…

There are more reasons to ban gas in buildings than just global warming. There's the fact that you are actually burning fuel, which released noxious fumes into the home [1]. There's mounting evidence that this sort of exposure has pretty negative health implications [2] Gas is also inherently dangerous, more-so than electricity. There's been more than a few examples of exploded homes/buildings due to gas leaks [3]. A…

Newer gas stoves turn off automatically when they don’t detect a flame, but I’ve only seen those in Europe so far.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#426

Post by speakfreely »

tcfhgj wrote: post #417
speakfreely wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you know that almost 40% of NYC's electricity grid is powered by natural gas? Another 30% from nuclear and ~20% from hydroelectric. Since nuclear and hydroelectric can't be immediately stepped up, what do you think is going to be increased to generate power for all these new electrical appliances that will be drawing power from the grid? The heat transfer and energy loss of electrical appliances generally makes t…

What can be stepped up fast is wind and solar energy. And a heat pump is superior to gas even if the grid consists 100% out of gas. Further, you don't build a building built for gas when have to switch to electricity in the future anyway when the grid is even cleaner.

> What can be stepped up fast is wind and solar energy.

I don't know who told you this. Can you point to any large city that is running on purely wind & solar right now? As far as I'm aware, there's not even a large regional city that has demonstrated this can work with current battery technology. I would be really happy to be wrong on this, but as of right now, it's not an option and we need to be realistic about that.

"The US Energy Information Administration (EIA) says nuclear power plants had a capacity factor of 92.6% in the US during 2022. This compares to 36.1% for wind energy and just 24.8% for solar photovoltaic technology. To a rough approximation, it takes three times as much wind capacity and four times as much solar to produce the same amount of electricity as a nuclear power plant over a given period. This is complicated by seasonality. Solar, for example, is particularly ineffective during the winter months when energy needs in the northern portion of the country are highest."

[0] https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.ph...

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#427

Post by 1023bytes »

hotpotamus wrote: post #54
71a54xd wrote: post #5

The irony is most of the industrial energy used in NYC to spin the pumps and fans in HVAC and thermal energy provided for heating water in boilers / air in NYC comes from steam generation plants. I used to live next to one near w58th street. For those who don't know, these massive facilities as large as power plants (some historically protected) run on natural gas! Although, it did boggle the mind how my luxury 2br a…

Is that to say there's a municipal steam power system of some sort? That's pretty alien to me, but it reminds me that there was a municipal hydraulic system in London before the advent of electricity that industrial users used for energy.

It's pretty common in other parts of Europe

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_heating#Market_penetr...

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#429

Post by tcfhgj »

fwungy wrote: post #389
novaRom wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany has almost no hydropower, no nuclear power anymore, but German government is continuing to insist a similar ban on natural gas in all new buildings should be introduced (or maybe already in action).

Germany thought they'd have cheap Russian gas from Nordstream. Now they're looking to move manufacturing to the US because energy is too expensive. Look at it this way, even is CO2 levels are primarily anthropogenic, most of the world isn't willing to do anything about it substantial (i.e. Global South). In which case the Western economies martyring themselves isn't going to change anything. OTOH, if climate change i…

Are you seriously chasing the global south while the west is responsible for this mess 90% while still abusing the global south for cheap labour?

> OTOH, if climate change is not primarily anthropogenic the West martyring itself with expensive green energy decisions is a disastrous mistake

Yikes

No comment

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#430

Post by pxx »

tcfhgj wrote: post #417
speakfreely wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you know that almost 40% of NYC's electricity grid is powered by natural gas? Another 30% from nuclear and ~20% from hydroelectric. Since nuclear and hydroelectric can't be immediately stepped up, what do you think is going to be increased to generate power for all these new electrical appliances that will be drawing power from the grid? The heat transfer and energy loss of electrical appliances generally makes t…

What can be stepped up fast is wind and solar energy. And a heat pump is superior to gas even if the grid consists 100% out of gas. Further, you don't build a building built for gas when have to switch to electricity in the future anyway when the grid is even cleaner.

Um. Aren't we talking about stoves? Heat pumps aren't usable for this application.

Even in the furnace case you need fairly ideal numbers for the heat pump to overtake the loss of 50% you're taking just in the generation step.

And I don't know what's up with your claim about solar and wind energy.

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