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New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

nytimes.com

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Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#381

Post by nonethewiser »

AbrahamParangi wrote: post #163
CardenB wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a fallacy. You can make anything into a slippery slope.

It seems to me that every time people reference the slippery slope fallacy, the people claiming slippery slope get proven right 10 years down the line. Even in this case, banning gas in new buildings implies that gas will be banned in the future!

It makes no sense to call the slippery slope a fallacy. Some things are a slippery slope, others are not. But it’s not fundamentally impossible to have a slippery slope.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#382

Post by MagicMoonlight »

iamdamian wrote: post #365

This regulation feels quite frustrating to me, and several comments in this thread illustrate why. This change is being promoted as a critical step in the fight against climate change. (See most news articles over the past two years covering this.) But when you dig into the details, it seems like the regulation may not have much effect on climate change at all. When you point this out to advocates, you'll get an enti…

1. Because destroying the planet affects everyone and injuring yourself costs everyone else in state spending. We also don’t allow asbestos or releasing poison gas in your garden.

2. Would you consider spreading awareness a suitable solution to knife crime? No? I wonder why.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#383

Post by annexrichmond »

arijun wrote: post #370
annexrichmond wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can’t people make safety decisions for themselves? Many people will choose electric/induction stoves, or not rent an apartment with a gas stove. But many people do prefer it, and I don’t think it should be up to you or the government whether something is “good” for them or not.

Do you have the same opinion on fire escapes? After all, it should be my choice to endanger myself so I can pay a little less in rent.

And who is protesting the existence of fire escapes? Since my argument was about freedom of choice, that couldn’t be more of a false equivalence.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#384

Post by nonethewiser »

topaz0 wrote: post #216
rayiner wrote: post #17

And NPR told me that the possibility of gas stoves being banned was fake outrage: https://www.npr.org/2023/01/20/1150228734/the-facts-and-stra... .

There are many ways that outrage can be fake, and a variety of them apply to this situation. For one thing the conservative talking points were all about a sense that the feds were coming for your freedom, and not in any way about the merits or otherwise of being able to burn gas in the place you live. For another, this was being talked about as something that would impose a heavy burden on normal people, which is si…

> For one thing the conservative talking points were all about a sense that the feds were coming for your freedom, and not in any way about the merits or otherwise of being able to burn gas in the place you live.

Well if the federal government’s opinion on gas is operative, and not your own, how is that not coming for your freedom?

You may think they have good cause, but that doesn’t change the nature of a law that bans you from doing or having something.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#385

Post by iamdamian »

MagicMoonlight wrote: post #382
iamdamian wrote: post #365

This regulation feels quite frustrating to me, and several comments in this thread illustrate why. This change is being promoted as a critical step in the fight against climate change. (See most news articles over the past two years covering this.) But when you dig into the details, it seems like the regulation may not have much effect on climate change at all. When you point this out to advocates, you'll get an enti…

1. Because destroying the planet affects everyone and injuring yourself costs everyone else in state spending. We also don’t allow asbestos or releasing poison gas in your garden. 2. Would you consider spreading awareness a suitable solution to knife crime? No? I wonder why.

I haven't seen evidence that this regulation will prevent the planet from being destroyed.

Also, personal health is not something that's generally regulated by the government, despite the potential to cause additional state spending.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#386

Post by annexrichmond »

hdisjdudh wrote: post #356
annexrichmond wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can’t people make safety decisions for themselves? Many people will choose electric/induction stoves, or not rent an apartment with a gas stove. But many people do prefer it, and I don’t think it should be up to you or the government whether something is “good” for them or not.

many people will rent and have no say on what's better for them

I’ve searched for apartments many times in my life, and both options were always plentiful. If it’s important enough to someone they will have a say.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#387

Post by nonethewiser »

wolverine876 wrote: post #113
rayiner wrote: post #17

And NPR told me that the possibility of gas stoves being banned was fake outrage: https://www.npr.org/2023/01/20/1150228734/the-facts-and-stra... .

What gas stoves are being banned or seized?

All of them in NYs new construction. You’re trying to hide behind a hair.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#388

Post by chongli »

iamdamian wrote: post #365

This regulation feels quite frustrating to me, and several comments in this thread illustrate why. This change is being promoted as a critical step in the fight against climate change. (See most news articles over the past two years covering this.) But when you dig into the details, it seems like the regulation may not have much effect on climate change at all. When you point this out to advocates, you'll get an enti…

It’s a lot easier to just ban stuff than to regulate things so they’re done properly. I’m sure if building inspectors did an unannounced tour of 100 random apartment buildings in New York they’d find a list of code violations a mile long.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#389

Post by fwungy »

novaRom wrote: post #173
fwungy wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Washington is unique in its hydropower positioning. It's easy to electrify in Washington because it makes sense to do so. Hydropower is cheap and clean. Unfortunately it's not a replicable model for the rest of the country.

Germany has almost no hydropower, no nuclear power anymore, but German government is continuing to insist a similar ban on natural gas in all new buildings should be introduced (or maybe already in action).

Germany thought they'd have cheap Russian gas from Nordstream. Now they're looking to move manufacturing to the US because energy is too expensive.

Look at it this way, even is CO2 levels are primarily anthropogenic, most of the world isn't willing to do anything about it substantial (i.e. Global South). In which case the Western economies martyring themselves isn't going to change anything.

OTOH, if climate change is not primarily anthropogenic the West martyring itself with expensive green energy decisions is a disastrous mistake.

What is the game theoretical optimal move here?

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#390

Post by [deleted] »

tialaramex wrote: post #235
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #166

I don't often like to take a "both sides" approach when assessing specific issues, but this one just seems to highlight the stupidity, or at the very least shortsightedness, of both sides. On one hand, for those pushing for a ban, this seems largely performative, a la banning plastic straws. Gas is used for 2 main reasons: for cooking, where it represents a miniscule amount of overall energy use, and for heating, whe…

One reason to specifically forbid new installations is to avoid stranding people when you later legislate provision out of existence altogether. Sooner or later this is going away. If you announce you're not doing new installations, that starts a timer on the existing users. In 2028 everything in use is at least 5 years old. In summer 2035 everything in use is at least 12 years old. Politically that makes it a lot ea…

[deleted]
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