New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings • Hacker News Board

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#341

Post by annexrichmond » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 9:22 PM UTC

ricardobayes wrote: post #318

blindriver wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California's strategy for electricity is non-existent. We have been perpetually at peak electricity use since 25+ years since I came here. Meanwhile electricity use from EVs has soared, and we don't have enough electricity for everything. AND we attempted to shut down nuclear power plants but that appears to be on hold for now. Plus, I'm paying over $0.50/kWh when I hit Tier 3, which I hit after 2 charges of my EV. E…

Well, holy smokes, I thought electricity was cheap in the US.

It could have been, but ideologues won’t stop talking about wind turbines vs fossil fuels. Over 30% of California’s grid comes from renewable resources, which seems great, but appears to have come at a cost.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#342

Post by nonethewiser » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 9:22 PM UTC

rhaway84773 wrote: post #255

The reactions to the gas hookup ban really reminds me of how insular Americans really are. They can’t even imagine a world where gas does not come in pipes, when arguably that’s how the vast majority of the world lives. You want a gas stove? Buy a gas stove, and get a cylinder. No one is stopping you from doing that. Just don’t expect everyone else to subsidize running that gas in a pipe up to your gas stove.

Natural gas is ubiquitous in the US indeed. Which is why a small peninsula on the edge of the state/country deciding to ban it shows how insular NYC leadership is.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#343

Post by bluGill » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 9:23 PM UTC

bradlys wrote: post #246

whiddershins wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only because of the thermostat, right? You could short the contact that turns the boiler on.

There's this thing called a fan that's inside your furnace. If the electricity goes out - you're gonna die of cold anyway because there's no way to move the heat from the furnace through your ductwork.

Convection will move air in my house. The safety will turn off the fan at overtemp, but it will keep the pipes from freezing.

I.need to replace my 50 year old furnace, modern ones don't work that way because it isn't compatible with high efficiency.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#344

Post by 8note » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 9:23 PM UTC

downut wrote: post #116

mkinsella wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. An induction cooktop and electric stove are far superior to gas.

I am curious how one pops popcorn, shakes a pan, throws the pan, and heats the sides of the pan when eg reducing stock. How do woks work, exactly, on an induction burner? Why does spilling liquids cause the problems I encountered? Why does the bottom of the pans have to be perfectly flat? Some of my cast iron skillets (whoops never mind) are 50 years or more old and are not perfectly flat. They cook fantastic on a ga…

You might be overselling your competence

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#345

Post by xwdv » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 9:23 PM UTC

bluGill wrote: post #329

xwdv wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to be a serious cook work in a commercial kitchen. Induction is a far better choice for residential use.

I can't afford to eat out every meal, not with 3 kids at home. Unless the meal is $20/person I can do better myself at home, and even many of the expensive ones are disappointing compared to what I can do for a fraction of the cost. Good tools help me cook better.

Hence induction stoves.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#346

Post by idontpost » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 9:24 PM UTC

annexrichmond wrote: post #330

cogman10 wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are more reasons to ban gas in buildings than just global warming. There's the fact that you are actually burning fuel, which released noxious fumes into the home [1]. There's mounting evidence that this sort of exposure has pretty negative health implications [2] Gas is also inherently dangerous, more-so than electricity. There's been more than a few examples of exploded homes/buildings due to gas leaks [3]. A…

Why can’t people make safety decisions for themselves? Many people will choose electric/induction stoves, or not rent an apartment with a gas stove. But many people do prefer it, and I don’t think it should be up to you or the government whether something is “good” for them or not.

[dead]

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#347

Post by cool_dude85 » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 9:24 PM UTC

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #166

I don't often like to take a "both sides" approach when assessing specific issues, but this one just seems to highlight the stupidity, or at the very least shortsightedness, of both sides. On one hand, for those pushing for a ban, this seems largely performative, a la banning plastic straws. Gas is used for 2 main reasons: for cooking, where it represents a miniscule amount of overall energy use, and for heating, whe…

>and for heating, where, if what all the heat pump folks say is true, gas should fall out of favor vs. heat pumps eventually anyway

This is exactly what governmental action is meant to put a stop to. We have a case where due to inertia, consumer preferences, market failures w.r.t. externalities, etc. residential gas use would, if left to the market, make up a significant proportion of heating energy.

Maybe "eventually anyway" gas would "fall out of favor", but what needs to happen is for it to no longer be in use (along with 1000 other such changes). The market cannot achieve this for us.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#348

Post by nonethewiser » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 9:24 PM UTC

stathibus wrote: post #2

Everyone is worked up about losing their gas stove, but natural gas heating is far more reliable and efficient than any electric option right now. This will create a lot of issues until heat pumps catch up. Northern New York is very cold.

> Northern New York is very cold.

Lots of houses burn oil in NY. That will still be possible.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#349

Post by 8note » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 9:25 PM UTC

oakwhiz wrote: post #8

71a54xd wrote: post #5

The irony is most of the industrial energy used in NYC to spin the pumps and fans in HVAC and thermal energy provided for heating water in boilers / air in NYC comes from steam generation plants. I used to live next to one near w58th street. For those who don't know, these massive facilities as large as power plants (some historically protected) run on natural gas! Although, it did boggle the mind how my luxury 2br a…

If buildings were required by code to have a more "fume hood"-like setup for capturing exhaust (with supply and return paths maintaining flow) then it would lead to better indoor air quality. As a bonus this is even a good idea anyway for electric stoves since it keeps any smells and smoke from leaving the kitchen area.

Also bad for insulation, since it's mostly an open hole to the outside in your kitchen

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#350

Post by retrac » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 9:25 PM UTC

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #184

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is also a third problem with this.... what happens when shit hits the fan? If you use gas and your neighbours use electricity, and there's suddenly a power outage, you can help your neighbors and heat/cook their food too,... or in case of a gas system outage, they can help with yours. If you heat with gas, you don't freeze even with a power outage, and can still buy a cheap electric heater with a gas outage...…

I'm guessing (maybe hoping?) that the downvotes are for the seemingly overly apocalyptic tone of your post. But FWIW, as someone who is from Texas who lost power for 5 days during Uri and nearly a week for the latest freeze this winter, I wholeheartedly agree. Not sure how I would have made it during Uri without gas - even with gas, we couldn't run our heater (system still needs electricity to run the fans, thermosta…

Some form of backup heat is considered rather essential in many parts of Canada, including in suburban detached homes. A small fireplace-style natural gas burner that doesn't need electricity is common -- I think about 1 in 4 homes have one? A significant proportion further have something else, like a wood stove, or bottled gas.

When the grid goes down for an extended period, people can and do freeze, or suffer the effects of poisoning or fire, from less safe forms of heat used out of desperation. (BBQ grill or wood/trash fire indoors, etc.) The Quebec/New England region grid collapse during the 1998 ice storm was particularly bad with dozens dead. An atypical event, but many do plan for that kind of eventuality in some way, whether by having backup heat or hopefully knowing someone who does.