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New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

nytimes.com

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Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#101

Post by WalterBright »

JamisonM wrote: post #65
john_shafthair wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not when the power's out for days - as often happens in winter storms. You can run the blower and electronics of a natural gas furnace or boiler off a little camping generator for a week or even better a natural gas whole house unit in perpetuity. So you don't, you know, freeze to death.

"You can run the blower and electronics of a natural gas furnace or boiler off a little camping generator.." Likewise for a heat pump, right? Does this "power out for days after a winter storm" thing actually happen very often? I am from Manitoba and my worst-ever experience was 10-11 hours when it was very, very cold out in 35+ years.

It's been out for 10 days at a time in Seattle.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#102

Post by [deleted] »

lesuorac wrote: post #18
rayiner wrote: post #17

And NPR told me that the possibility of gas stoves being banned was fake outrage: https://www.npr.org/2023/01/20/1150228734/the-facts-and-stra... .

> And NPR told me that the possibility of gas stoves being banned was fake outrage: https://www.npr.org/2023/01/20/1150228734/the-facts-and-stra... No they didn't. > MARTÍNEZ: Look, Jeff and Lisa, I don't know what's going to happen with gas stoves. Also NPR was talking about the Federal government. While the article above is talking about the New York _State_ government.

[deleted]

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#103

Post by saiya-jin »

rcme wrote: post #72
SigmundA wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worst case at 240v : Electric hot water heater = 20 amps Electric stove = 50 amps all burners on and oven Washing machine = 15 amps Car charger = 50 amps Total = 135 amps Standard residential service in the US = 200 amps split phase @ 240v Whats the problem?

You didn't include air conditioning, vacuum, power washer, power tools, etc. It's not that you'd be running all these things at once (although AC run a lot), but it's pretty crazy that you could even come close to tripping your main breaker.

Pretty crazy? Not sure I follow, if you push anything fancy to the limits shit will happen, and over the limits there are some guarantees you will not like the result.

Its not like its year 10'000 and we polished technology, infrastructure and everything to the max physics allow. For example you can easily break whole internet if significant portion of its users decide to download something relatively big at the same time.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#104

Post by unethical_ban »

rayiner wrote: post #17

And NPR told me that the possibility of gas stoves being banned was fake outrage: https://www.npr.org/2023/01/20/1150228734/the-facts-and-stra... .

The ... ahem, administrators of Fox News and the Conservative media bubble told their flock that 87,000 IRS federal agents were being hired to come to everyone's houses (Conservatives first though) to remove all AR-15s and gas appliances as soon as possible, probably after Kamala Harris orchestrates Biden's removal from office via the 25th amendment so she, famous trans progressive, can implement the true LiberalTM agenda.

Fossil fuel use for energy (in the long term) should be centralized, then replaced. Building gas lines to new buildings should therefore be less preferred than running all-electric. Then of course, there is the reason gas stoves got brought up recently, which is concern with interior air quality and its long term impact on families.

The reality is that eventually, gas appliances will probably be restricted/phased out of use in new installations for several reasons. This shouldn't be surprising, sensational or controversial. The fiction is that they will be forcefully removed from existing installations. See electric vehicles, where my Fox-ian father thinks all gas cars will be banned in 2025 or some shit, when in reality new sales won't even be meaningfully restricted for another 12 years.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#105

Post by peter422 »

WalterBright wrote: post #91
hedora wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people around here buy enough battery or generators to keep the power on. PG&E is way below one nine of availability this year, but the outlets inside our house are at 6 nines followed by an eight. Granted, once the propane rationing started, a few of our neighbors lost power for extended periods of time (weeks). The phone company doesn’t maintain internet if the power is out, but there is starlink, and fiber co…

> a third world country if you measure things by quality of government services And yet Californians pay enormous taxes.

Californians actually pay lower overall taxes compared to other states due to low property taxes.

Also, my power in San Francisco has probably been out for no more than 6 hours over the last 10 years. I don't know how many 9s that is, but it's more than 1.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#106

Post by danans »

hedora wrote: post #68
jrockway wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A bigger problem is getting a feed to your house that can handle your hot water heater, stove, washing machine, and electric car charging all at once. That's rather impractical in some areas, so there is some work to coordinate between the appliances so they can share a smaller feed. The way some stoves are participating is that they charge a battery at relatively low current all the time, and then cook from the batt…

I don’t think it’s impractical to upgrade service lines. It is, however, impractical to get PG&E to approve the upgrade. (For us, that process cost about 3 years and $10K. They ran a wire 6 feet from an existing transformer to a pole we had to install ourselves). When they pass these laws, they should come with an SLA for the utility provider to approve “engineering” plans for the utility hookup and whatever transfor…

> (For us, that process cost about 3 years and $10K. They ran a wire 6 feet from an existing transformer to a pole we had to install ourselves).

Must have been a while ago because in 2021 they charged me $0 (not a typo) to go from 100A to 200A. It took just a month or so to arrange.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#107

Post by throwawaymaths »

danans wrote: post #96
someonehere wrote: post #22

Berkeley attempted this and it was recently overturned: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/court-overturns-berkeley-califo... California's electric grid is in horrendous shape. We can barely keep the power on in the summertime, especially when wildfires happen. When the power is out, am I expected to start a fire in my yard to cook food? Fire up my JetBoil? My BBQ?

> When the power is out, am I expected to start a fire in my yard to cook food? Fire up my JetBoil? My BBQ? How about a little butane stove? They work great at hotel omelette bars! Or a Coleman stove? It's not that big a deal to cook when the power is out, really.

People downvote but I went to REI to get a dual purpose propane stove for both camping purposes and emergency purposes. At that moment there was another person in the store that was buying one just for backup. Luckily, haven't had to use it for emergencies yet (and successfully deployed it car camping).

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#108

Post by [deleted] »

tombert wrote: post #3
stathibus wrote: post #2

Everyone is worked up about losing their gas stove, but natural gas heating is far more reliable and efficient than any electric option right now. This will create a lot of issues until heat pumps catch up. Northern New York is very cold.

Can't modern heat pumps work even in crazy cold climates now? I seem to remember seeing that some are rated for -20F nowadays.

[deleted]

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#110

Post by 11235813213455 »

rgmerk wrote: post #52
stathibus wrote: post #2

Everyone is worked up about losing their gas stove, but natural gas heating is far more reliable and efficient than any electric option right now. This will create a lot of issues until heat pumps catch up. Northern New York is very cold.

Yes, but the vast majority of the population of New York State lives in places where air source heat pumps work just fine. Air source heat pumps can be built to work down to at least -20 Fahrenheit[1]. That's equal to the coldest temperature on record in places like Buffalo and Albany. For those relatively few people living in places which get even colder than that, there's the option of either ground loop heat pumps…

can heat pumps use underground sources as a cold (summer) / hot (winter) source?
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