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New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

nytimes.com

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Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#91

Post by WalterBright »

hedora wrote: post #85
someonehere wrote: post #22

Berkeley attempted this and it was recently overturned: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/court-overturns-berkeley-califo... California's electric grid is in horrendous shape. We can barely keep the power on in the summertime, especially when wildfires happen. When the power is out, am I expected to start a fire in my yard to cook food? Fire up my JetBoil? My BBQ?

Most people around here buy enough battery or generators to keep the power on. PG&E is way below one nine of availability this year, but the outlets inside our house are at 6 nines followed by an eight. Granted, once the propane rationing started, a few of our neighbors lost power for extended periods of time (weeks). The phone company doesn’t maintain internet if the power is out, but there is starlink, and fiber co…

> a third world country if you measure things by quality of government services

And yet Californians pay enormous taxes.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#92

Post by aobdev »

greenthrow wrote: post #76
stathibus wrote: post #2

Everyone is worked up about losing their gas stove, but natural gas heating is far more reliable and efficient than any electric option right now. This will create a lot of issues until heat pumps catch up. Northern New York is very cold.

This is completely false. Gas heating is way, way less efficient than a heat pump. And don't bring up low temperatures, modern heat pumps can have back up resistive heaters and combined use will still be far, far more efficient than gas heat. If you can install geothermal that's better still. Stop spreading fossil fuel industry lies.

They probably mean cost efficiency rather than thermodynamic efficiency. It would cost a lot to install those systems in addition to the electricity storage necessary to run during a blizzard. I’m not disagreeing that electric is better but there’s a lot more to consider than just “modern systems are better so you should install them” and it’s not a lie to say so.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#93

Post by CircleSpokes »

someonehere wrote: post #22

Berkeley attempted this and it was recently overturned: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/court-overturns-berkeley-califo... California's electric grid is in horrendous shape. We can barely keep the power on in the summertime, especially when wildfires happen. When the power is out, am I expected to start a fire in my yard to cook food? Fire up my JetBoil? My BBQ?

>Berkeley attempted this and it was recently overturned: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/court-overturns-berkeley-califo...

There is a legal difference between a state banning it and a city. States have far more powers that cities don't (unless the state delegates that power which they often do)

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#94

Post by zmgsabst »

andbberger wrote: post #89
hedora wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people around here buy enough battery or generators to keep the power on. PG&E is way below one nine of availability this year, but the outlets inside our house are at 6 nines followed by an eight. Granted, once the propane rationing started, a few of our neighbors lost power for extended periods of time (weeks). The phone company doesn’t maintain internet if the power is out, but there is starlink, and fiber co…

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Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#95

Post by WalterBright »

xboxnolifes wrote: post #51
galleywest200 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the middle of the night while you are asleep?

Why is your stove on while you sleep?

It's probably connected to the internet, downloading critical updates to the burner software and ads to display while you're cooking.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#96

Post by danans »

someonehere wrote: post #22

Berkeley attempted this and it was recently overturned: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/court-overturns-berkeley-califo... California's electric grid is in horrendous shape. We can barely keep the power on in the summertime, especially when wildfires happen. When the power is out, am I expected to start a fire in my yard to cook food? Fire up my JetBoil? My BBQ?

> When the power is out, am I expected to start a fire in my yard to cook food? Fire up my JetBoil? My BBQ?

How about a little butane stove? They work great at hotel omelette bars! Or a Coleman stove? It's not that big a deal to cook when the power is out, really.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#97

Post by r00fus »

greenthrow wrote: post #88
r00fus wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At very low temperatures? I think if you're above zero F, you should be ok, but below zero it gets expensive. They're not talking about taxing gas - they're talking about banning it.

> At very low temperatures? I think if you're above zero F, you should be ok, but below zero it gets expensive. Did you read my comment before replying? I already addressed this. Yes I am talking about well below zero F. > They're not talking about taxing gas - they're talking about banning it. Yes and they should ban it. Electric heating is way more efficient, doesn't poison the occupants and can be powered from ren…

Sure, in CA a ban makes sense (though Berkeley law was overturned). But in a polar vortex winter storm, how do you have enough power to keep the building warm if there's no power, and the minimal reserves you may have with battery backup are not enough to run the heat pump?

I think this ban is too bold and will result in political backlash that will end up doing worse than if something less drastic was proposed.

Hochul was 10pts away from losing the last race to a complete RW zealot.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#98

Post by dragonwriter »

zmgsabst wrote: post #94
andbberger wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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> Most third world countries don’t allow organized crime

Depending on whether you mean de jure or de facto when you say “allow”, this is either not a difference or not true.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#99

Post by maccard »

reisse wrote: post #11
tombert wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't modern heat pumps work even in crazy cold climates now? I seem to remember seeing that some are rated for -20F nowadays.

I lived in a building with heat pumps in Europe. In colder climate, they're loud. As in, LOUD. It's likely fine when you can install the external module somewhere on the roof (poor birds though), but in many apartment buildings you can only put it on the outer walls, and you can clearly hear the sound inside the flat. Internal modules that cycle air are also noisy, though less. I'm glad to pay the premium for silent…

I'd hardly classify my gas boiler as silent.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#100

Post by WalterBright »

greenthrow wrote: post #77
john_shafthair wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not when the power's out for days - as often happens in winter storms. You can run the blower and electronics of a natural gas furnace or boiler off a little camping generator for a week or even better a natural gas whole house unit in perpetuity. So you don't, you know, freeze to death.

What nonsense. If you ha e a backup generator your power isn't out. Gas heat doesn't work with the power out. Why are you resorting to lies to push fossil fuels?

Backup generators are not usually large enough to power an electric furnace. But they'll power the fan for the gas heat just fine.

Source: I used a little gas generator many times to power the gas furnace when the electric grid was down.

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