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Brazil judge orders temporary suspension of Telegram

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Re: Brazil judge orders temporary suspension of Telegram

#191

Post by Georgelemental »

Nursie wrote: post #99
Georgelemental wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No national laws should think they are above freedom of expression and the right to privacy.

OK, now define those things in an unambiguous way such that countries can come together in agreement over what constitutes expression, where the lines are with respect to slander/libel, what constitutes incitement, harassment... is money expression? Are lies in advertising protected? These simple declarations of what people feel is true and right are ... I dunno, is the right expression "charmingly naive"?

Actually, it's not that hard to define these things pretty unambiguously. I hashed this out in a previous thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35508978

Re: Brazil judge orders temporary suspension of Telegram

#193

Post by [deleted] »

boeingUH60 wrote: post #167
esperent wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Calling the UAE a Russian ally is a massive stretch. No, it is not. Of course they look out for themselves first. However, in this time of war and international sanctions they are one of the countries who are deepening their ties with Russia. They are spending a lot of money on PR to make it seem like they are on the side of the west, but in actual fact they have been profiting massively from Russia over the last f…

They're looking out for themselves and have profited greatly from the Russian government's folly...good riddance. After all, every country including the US is out for their own interests; none of them are moral beacons. "Anyone who is not for us is against us" is sheer Western arrogance going back to the days of warmonger George Bush.

[deleted]

Re: Brazil judge orders temporary suspension of Telegram

#194

Post by Georgelemental »

cjalmeida wrote: post #77
Georgelemental wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No national laws should think they are above freedom of expression and the right to privacy.

Unabridged, borderline irresponsible freedom of expression is granted only in the US. Some Canadian truckers found this out the hard way

Somehow, despite all the incorrect opinions and unsanctioned thoughts, we still get by.

Re: Brazil judge orders temporary suspension of Telegram

#195

Post by Georgelemental »

p-e-w wrote: post #88
alwayslikethis wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So they should also hand out the names and locations of people organizing anti-war protests in Russia if ever requested.

If they want to do business in Russia? Absolutely. Fortunately, nobody is forcing them to do business in Russia. But doing so entails acceptance of whatever local rules there are, including rules the vast majority of people might consider wrong. I can promise you that Facebook & Co happily hand information on any individual to US law enforcement as long as there is a court order. They don't look at the person in ques…

Does Telegram have servers or offices in Brazil?

Re: Brazil judge orders temporary suspension of Telegram

#196

Post by rektide »

voltaireodactyl wrote: post #73
rektide wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me it's up to nations to determine whether they want to be connected to the rest of the planet. If you want to make a bunch of rules for yourself, you get what we have here, I hope: your country having to shut off that part of the internet. You phrase it as doing business. But to me, these people in these other places are coming to us. They are connected to us. The onus is not on the rest of the world to adapt our…

In your scenario, you’re calling this the opposite of an expansion. But aren’t the companies literally “expanding” into these countries? Otherwise, what’s the issue? Unless you’re saying they should have sway regardless of whether they’re doing business there or not? And to be clear it is “doing business”. Nobody is forcing companies to ship anywhere they don’t want to. Nobody is forcing them to allow IP connections…

If I don't have any servers in your nation, I don't see how you could possibly even begin to regard me as having expanded into your nation. Your people are leaving your nation to come to me. That seems quite factually rooted.

Re: Brazil judge orders temporary suspension of Telegram

#197

Post by rektide »

jruohonen wrote: post #92
voltaireodactyl wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's 195 nations on this planet. Should every company lower themselves below every nation? Without question? My honest response to this would be: “yes, if they want to do business in said country”. Otherwise we end up where we’ve been, with Facebook being the sole way to access internet in some places. Why should an organization seeking to make a profit hold more sway than the institutions that allow such a prof…

I don't understand why voltaireodactyl's comment was downvoted because he or she is pretty much on the right track with respect to the current legal regimes. Those still promoting Barlow's ideas in 2023 are living in a fantasy world.

It's because the legal regimes are absurd wrong & on a crash course for unsustainable conflicting tangles of lawmaking, and don't recognize the international kerfuffle created by letting any nation anywhere apply se I tree rules to any business. Each nation thinks it has the right, but doesn't consider that that implies every other nation also has fiat right to do make up whatever rules it wants against any other company, purely because said company can be reached over the internet. The nations are insane & power drunk.

And voltaireodactyl phrased it as someone doing their shit in the US being an invader & colonizer of other nations, just because other people can so happen to connect to the US. Which is further absurd & unsustainable madness.

I didn't down vote. But down vote to the nations of the earth, who are idiots, making mockery of themselves & the law itself by planting the seeds of tyranny by giving themselves arbitrary power over everywhere on earth. These nations are in the wrong. I agree with you that this resembles the current legal climate, but the legal climate is being actively hostile to humanity, is being absurd, is wrong, and in a number of cases we have gotten right up the brink of nations having to disconnect services to actually have any power, to maintain their laws, and alas the major nations tend generally to keep backing down. This is their only real power, to disconnect, and this untenable situation will lead to more and more breakdowns over time, and I hope we see more disconnects, rather than the constant spread of every random ration having arbitrary power over everyone.

Re: Brazil judge orders temporary suspension of Telegram

#198

Post by tapoxi »

NayamAmarshe wrote: post #53
tapoxi wrote: post #26

I'm fairly certain it is deeply connected to Russia. People believe it's encrypted but it's not for group chats or default for direct chats. They have money when Telegram is expensive to run, not to mention they can easily threaten Durov's life. The Russian network block and letting people use Telegram again was the government squeezing their biggest source of users and income until they acquiesced.

> I'm fairly certain it is deeply connected to Russia. Just as Signal, Facebook, Google, WhatsApp are deeply connected to the USA? > People believe it's encrypted but it's not for group chats or default for direct chats. The cloud and E2EE encryption of Telegram have already been audited by independent researchers. > They have money when Telegram is expensive to run They literally raised money (a billion dollars) by…

Most Telegram messages are group chats, they are not E2EE at all since Telegram doesn't support them.

Re: Brazil judge orders temporary suspension of Telegram

#199

Post by jalbertoni »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #85
dancemethis wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Nah, there is equilibrium between the three powers. Not really. Judiciary is basically governing the country. Supreme court legislates by basically interpreting or ignoring laws however they want. This isn't just me either, actual lawyers have told me this to my face years ago. Only now do I fully appreciate the truth of those words. I mean, a supreme court judge just presented his "suggestions" for the censorship…

> The stroke of a pen makes police do whatever they want so yeah.

You mean like when an order telling the police to remove people camped in front of military bases asking for a coup was signed in early December, but it took until the actual coup attempt in January for the police to actually do anything about it?

Okay, no, let's be completely fair. The police was since December making sure the camped people didn't spill over into the street and block traffic. So yeah, the supreme court controls at least Judy Hopps.

> Hell, I remember watching a video of one of these judges literally say out loud he was proud of being partial towards the communists.

Assuming this is true, I'd really like to know what communists they were talking about. The current party in government was already considered in the 80s to be center-left, and they only mellowed more towards the center in recent years, with pretty much all internal factions that had moderately radical ideas leaving the party. Emphasis mine on the last line.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workers%27_Party_(Brazil)#Fact...

- Workers' Cause (CO) – seceded from the party in 1990 as the Workers' Cause Party (PCO)

- Socialist Convergence [pt] (CS) – seceded in 1993 as part of Unified Workers' Socialist Party (PSTU)

- Workers' Socialist Current (CST) – seceded in 2004 to form the Socialism and Liberty Party (PSOL)

- Socialist Left Movement (MES) – seceded in 2004 to form the Socialism and Liberty Party (PSOL)

- Popular Socialist Action (APS) – seceded in 2005 and joined the Socialism and Liberty Party (PSOL)

- Tendency for the Workers' Revolutionary Party (TPOR) – Trotskyist faction that seceded in 1990 as the Workers' Revolutionary Party (POR)

- Marxist Left (EM), the Brazilian section of the Trotskyist International Marxist Tendency. Marxist Left released a statement saying that "for the revolutionaries, there is no more room for the construction of socialist ideas within PT".

Re: Brazil judge orders temporary suspension of Telegram

#200

Post by matheusmoreira »

jalbertoni wrote: post #199
matheusmoreira wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nah, there is equilibrium between the three powers. Not really. Judiciary is basically governing the country. Supreme court legislates by basically interpreting or ignoring laws however they want. This isn't just me either, actual lawyers have told me this to my face years ago. Only now do I fully appreciate the truth of those words. I mean, a supreme court judge just presented his "suggestions" for the censorship…

> The stroke of a pen makes police do whatever they want so yeah. You mean like when an order telling the police to remove people camped in front of military bases asking for a coup was signed in early December, but it took until the actual coup attempt in January for the police to actually do anything about it? Okay, no, let's be completely fair. The police was since December making sure the camped people didn't spi…

> You mean like

I mean like when they walked all over the constitution by censoring Bolsonaro supporters left and right. Literal unabashed unconstitutional censorship, openly biased against Bolsonaro at that.

There's plenty wrong with the literal concentration camp they set up in Brasília too. People imprisoned without any charges. Only recently did they vote to turn some of them into actual defendants. Not to mention the embarrassing videos that leaked recently that imply that whole "terrorist" thing was a false flag operation. Meanwhile they released PCC drug traffickers involved in the torture and assassination attempt against the Lava Jato judge and his family. It's comical.

> I'd really like to know what communists they were talking about

PT, obviously. The fact Lula is a communist is news? It's becoming a pain to have to constantly remind people of this. There's videos of him literally saying his objective is to install socialism in Brazil. Decades old videos. I have no reason to doubt the man's own words and his actions certainly don't leave any room for doubt. Whether the other communists think he's a real communist... Who cares, really?

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