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Animal meat and milk sales drop in Europe as vegan versions hit record highs

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Re: Animal meat and milk sales drop in Europe as vegan versions hit record highs

#211

Post by simplotek »

roenxi wrote: post #90
mtkd wrote: post #7

> vegan meat products saw a 21 percent increase in unit sales from 2020 to 2022 > During the same period, animal-based meat and milk sales dropped by eight and nine percent, respectively There are likely additional factors at play in the animal based drop UK ONS shows whole milk at low of 43p/l in 2020 increasing to 70p/l in Mar 23 and minced beef from 609p/kg to 812p/kg in 23 -- but those numbers likely do not refle…

The headline seems to be mixing two trends in food randomly. The drop in meat & milk is likely independent of vegan trends - the $ figures are different orders of magnitude. This isn't substitution at all, so there is no reason to think they are interacting. Europe is probably being hit by some sort of hardship right now meaning people can't eat as well as usual. The UK seems to be being hit by an energy crisis for e…

> Europe is probably being hit by some sort of hardship right now meaning people can't eat as well as usual.

Isn't Europe experiencing an inflation wave of around 10%? That tends to take away meat from the diet.

Edit: Eurostat says it's 6.9% in the euro area, and 8.3 in the EU as a whole.

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/2995521/16324910/2-1...

Re: Animal meat and milk sales drop in Europe as vegan versions hit record highs

#212

Post by xk_id »

rebuilder wrote: post #50
xk_id wrote: post #41

Probably going to be short lasted, as the nutritional deficiencies caused by those products start to produce symptoms. Then plant based diets will become stigmatised. The trend in plant foods to label them with names for animal products is very misleading when the nutritional profiles have absolutely nothing in common. Oat “milk” is basically flavoured water; soy “milk” has a little bit of nutrients in it, but it’s n…

Seitan is gluten which is perfectly digestible, unless of course you are sensitive to it. The oat milks I see sold here are fortified with calcium and vitamins as well as iodine. No argument on vegan cheeses.

Oatly “brags” about not adding anything “extra” to their products (meaning they don’t even fortify with synthetic vitamins).

Gluten has a protein digestibility score of 0.25 - compared to 1 for animal protein. [0]

The bioavailability of synthetic vitamins used for fortification varies (e.g for b12, the methyl-, hydroxo- and cyano- variants are not equally effective at treating deficiency) and is different from natural sources (where cofactors and the vegetal matrix play a role in absorption).

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_Digestibility_Correcte...

Re: Animal meat and milk sales drop in Europe as vegan versions hit record highs

#213

Post by Eduard »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #200
Eduard wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know; this is Hacker News, hence a strong knowledge and habit bubble of start-up ramen and food delivery cuisine, and a lack of knowledge of all the other choices of food that nature provides, and no experiences in the kitchen besides microwave. Vegan people must belt down their Kwashiorkor; and no idea how any other society in the world of the long and recent past, as well as the present, could struggle through th…

You're looking at extremes, while I'm saying that once you cannot afford meat anymore, you cannot afford vegan alternatives either. If you can't pay 2eur for a piece of pork, you can't afford a 3-pack of bell peppers either. But you can afford a 60c half-kilo pack of pasta.

If I can buy a piece of pork for 2 EUR at my German supermarket, then this is because of the meat industry in Germany being subsidized with an estimated 13 billion EUR yearly.

https://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/tierwirtschaft-erhaelt-13-...

Re: Animal meat and milk sales drop in Europe as vegan versions hit record highs

#214

Post by hutzlibu »

ben_w wrote: post #48
hutzlibu wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the difficult conversation we need to be having would be about proteins and how to produce them sustainabily and ethically. This plant based vegan alternatives hide from the real problem, I think" Huh? I thought the real problem are the vast ressources milk production needs and the cruel need to seperate the cow babies from their mothers so they produce more milk. And not even speaking about the meat production faca…

Meat and dairy are clearly not "vast" resource hogs in any way that currently matters, because they're cheap. And while I personally share the belief that it's inherently cruel and should be changed, it's been obvious to me for most of my life that most people don't share those values and are not motivated by that. But that's also a category error for the comment you're replying to, which is "is it healthy?" when you…

" But that's also a category error for the comment you're replying to, which is "is it healthy?" when you're answering "is it ethical?" "

I agree that those are two different categories, but the quote I used was about both:

"how to produce them sustainabily and ethically"

Re: Animal meat and milk sales drop in Europe as vegan versions hit record highs

#215

Post by simplotek »

CalRobert wrote: post #109
oifjsidjf wrote: post #55

>> The Good Food Institute Europe (GFI Europe) reports that sales of plant-based foods across 13 European nations amounted to €5.7 billion in 2022. The good food institude is the lobbying arm of the lab grown protein companies. >> ...a Y Combinator funded non-profit that promotes plant- and cultivated meat alternatives to conventional animal meat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Friedrich Also look at stocks at th…

Good points until you showed obvious bias with the "fake food" comment.

> Good points until you showed obvious bias with the "fake food" comment.

What leads you to believe that the clear conflict of interests pointed out by OP changes in any way if OP doesn't use a marketing term to refer to their product?

Re: Animal meat and milk sales drop in Europe as vegan versions hit record highs

#216

Post by Gareth321 »

deif wrote: post #164
Gareth321 wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lower stature and bone density is evidence of dangerous malnutrition. Those with lower bone density in particular are at far higher risk of osteoporosis. I'm not sure how you could claim that isn't evidence of potential danger.

Not sure what your evidence is. Here's my list of studies of vegetarian and vegan children that disprove your claims: * https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/11/4/832/htm * https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00394-021-02753-3 * https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/13/5/1707/htm * https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/113/6/1565/6178918 * https://anthropogoniquescom.files.wordpress.com/2019/08/grow... * https://anthropogon…

> Not sure what your evidence is.

I provided a study in my very first comment. Did you read it? I'll provide it again for you here: (https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/113/6/1565/6178918?log...) The study found vegan children to be at risk of lower stature and bone density.

Thank you for the studies, I have reviewed them. In turn:

1. Please review Figure 2. Children on vegan and vegetarian diets presented with higher rates of "stunted or severely stunted," as per the WHO criteria used. This is discussed and confirmed later in the study. The study did not measure bone density at all.

2. This is the same study cited as above.

3. This study explored neither height nor bone density. The blood levels of studied macro-nutrients were in the healthy range, and that's good.

4. In a fascinating twist of fate, you cited the study I cited above, which finds that vegan children are at risk of lower stature and bone density. I'm not sure you read these studies if you think this study confirms your beliefs.

5. This study found that vegetarian children were both shorter, and weighed less. They did not measure bone density.

6. This study found, like the rest, that vegan children were shorter and weighed less. They did not measure bone density.

7. This study, once again, found children to be lighter and shorter. They did not measure bone density.

8. This study, once again, found children to be lighter and lower in "growth percentile." The study did not measure bone density.

9. It's hard to parse this study. The omnivorous children were taller than the vegetarians, but shorter than the vegans. However the vegan cohort was only six in total. Further, the vegetarian children were heavier than the omnivores. These results are the opposite of all of the studies you cited. It is an interesting data point, but it doesn't appear to lend credence to either of our arguments. It's clear that some delta occurs as a result of vegan, vegetarian, and omnivorous diets, and given the wealth of evidence you've submitted, it's clear that vegetarian and especially vegan diets usually result in poorer growth. The study did not measure bone density.

I'm not sure you read these studies very thoroughly. I suppose I should thank you for providing so much corroborative evidence that vegan diets are dangerous for children.

Re: Animal meat and milk sales drop in Europe as vegan versions hit record highs

#217

Post by simplotek »

_cenw wrote: post #88
mtkd wrote: post #7

> vegan meat products saw a 21 percent increase in unit sales from 2020 to 2022 > During the same period, animal-based meat and milk sales dropped by eight and nine percent, respectively There are likely additional factors at play in the animal based drop UK ONS shows whole milk at low of 43p/l in 2020 increasing to 70p/l in Mar 23 and minced beef from 609p/kg to 812p/kg in 23 -- but those numbers likely do not refle…

Milk was heavily subsidized and the prices were pushed to a point where all but the largest scale producers were making losses (~30 cents per liter) where I live whereas the price of plant based milk used to have a huge novely / vegan markup that wasn't based in production cost. The cost of plant based milk is not exactly much less than dairy now, but it is actually cheaper if you go by discount brand prices. That so…

> Milk was heavily subsidized (...)

The whole agricultural industry in Europe is heavily subsidized through Europe's common agriculture policy. It's a strategic and national interest policy so that Europe's access to food is not jeopardized in case of war.

It's ok that these subsidies exist, and they surely won't go away any time soon.

Re: Animal meat and milk sales drop in Europe as vegan versions hit record highs

#218

Post by kelipso »

Eduard wrote: post #209
kelipso wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oat milk is a popular vegan milk and almost all of them are 10% canola oil. It's not that much of a strawman.

> almost all of them * which you checked / where you live Probably you mean 10% oat, not canola oil; that much fat wouldn't be a vegan drink milk alternative. Besides, I don't find the current evidence for canola oil being unhealthy convincing.

No, I mean canola oil. It's to give a creamy texture to oat milk. Oatly oat milk, for example, more than 1/3 of its calories come from canola oil.

Re: Animal meat and milk sales drop in Europe as vegan versions hit record highs

#219

Post by archon1410 »

ihatepython wrote: post #210
archon1410 wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

If we run out of plant food sources, the omnivores can simply eat the vegans. In nature, there is a food chain.

It seems you don't understand how this "foodchain" works—there will be nothing, no non-human or human animal, to eat if "we" run of out plant food sources. Everything consumed ultimately comes from plants.

Re: Animal meat and milk sales drop in Europe as vegan versions hit record highs

#220

Post by CalRobert »

hexis wrote: post #139
CalRobert wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good points until you showed obvious bias with the "fake food" comment.

Dismissing a point due to bias is an example of the ad hominem fallacy.

I'm not dismissing a point. I said they were good points. I just think that calling the food "fake" detracts from their argument.
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