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CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

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Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#801

Post by dayjaby »

walrus01 wrote: post #762
05 wrote: post #743

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is using 50Wh/kg in UAVs; even 150C racing drone batteries are higher energy density (~135Wh/kg for Tattu R-line V5 1200mAh 6s, 195grams)

Read what I wrote again, I said 300Wh/kg is 50Wh/kg above what's used in expensive UAVs. There are setups out there using high amperage Panasonic cells at 250Wh/kg for 12S systems. You build a pack with 12S strings of high amperage rated Panasonic 18650 or 20700 and then parallel multiple of those strings together for large capacity (such as for something the size of a freefly alta X). A small quadcopter that uses a…

Any BMS that you can recommend for this panasonic setup?

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#802

Post by fishnchips »

bluGill wrote: post #439
sveme wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you should read up on what ICE bans in countries where they are implemented actually means. Hint: You can continue to use the ICE vehicle you bought in 2034 in the EU until infinity.

> You can continue to use the ICE vehicle you bought in 2034 in the EU until infinity. Sure, if you can find fuel. By 2034 EVs will be enough of the market that gas stations are already closing (remember today new cars are 10 year old used cars, and there is every reason to think EVs will be half of all cars). There is still one on every corner, so you might not see this trend, but it will be in the statistics. By 20…

In my country (Poland) gas stations get more income from selling other things, mainly alcohol, because unlike other vendors they can stay open overnight. Margins on gasoline are extremely thin already. It makes sense for them to stay open regardless of the demand for actual gasoline.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#803

Post by zamnos »

_ea1k wrote: post #767
magila wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, not really. Most "battery breakthrough!" press releases are about some new exotic chemistry while most mass produced battery improvements in the last 20 years have come from incremental improvements to existing chemistries and better packaging.

Meh, the devil's in the details with a lot of those announcements. A surprising number of them are things like... it will be 50% better 5-10 years from now! That's actually incremental improvement if you think about it in annual improvement terms.

It is, except for the fact that the future isn't guaranteed, so there could be unforeseen problems with scaling up, and that 50% improvement never gets delivered. As mentioned upthread though, CATL has expertise in that area, and "end of this year" is so a trackable claim, unlike the claims about gallium-based batteries.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#804

Post by maccard »

j2bax wrote: post #561
bluGill wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We could, but it would require new aircraft. Passenger aircraft are not designed for that kind of stress. I'm not sure that passengers would like that much acceleration either. I don't know that it would actually save anything though. Aircraft of carriers are held back while they throttle the engine to full throttle. Only after the pilot is convinced the engine will run long enough to take off do they release the bra…

How about you elevator passengers up to a runway that is a thousand feet up in the air. Then use electric lines on the runway to power the takeoff to avoid using any onboard batteries until airborne. Just daydreaming here a bit!

You still need the energy to get people up that elevator though.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#805

Post by [deleted] »

adoos wrote: post #702
s5300 wrote: post #636

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does going lithium mean 18650? 14500s have always existed. I think there’s even smaller than that but I haven’t personally checked in a bit.

Form factor smaller than 1865 with energy dense formula is rare. Chinese made LFP but only a handful of mfgs make them anymore. So size doesn't matter, but it basically matters :D

[deleted]

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#806

Post by elihu »

jackmott42 wrote: post #643
scythe wrote: post #612

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is a little under 2x the density of [the best] current batteries. [brackets mine] But the best batteries contain unacceptably high levels of cobalt. Practical EV batteries are made with nickel or iron, maybe vanadium someday, and have lower density than pure LiCoO2. >CATL is already producing a ton of batteries, lending them some credibility. A couple of years ago CATL claimed that they had figured out how to m…

My EV with cobalt in the batteries seemed practical to me. And nothing wrong with having some lithium in their battery. The important thing is how much cheaper is it.

Cobalt is practical if you want to make low millions of cars. It ceases to be practical if you want to make a billion cars. There just isn't enough of it readily available to scale.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#807

Post by ly3xqhl8g9 »

mlindner wrote: post #776
ly3xqhl8g9 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Various theoretical energy densities of batteries and gasoline: lead acid 123 Wh/kg lithium ion 250 Wh/kg zinc-oxygen 1,084 Wh/kg sodium-oxygen 1,605 Wh/kg lithium-sulfur 2,600 Wh/kg magnesium-oxygen 6,800 Wh/kg aluminium-oxygen 8,100 Wh/kg lithium-air 11,140 Wh/kg gasoline 12,700 Wh/kg from 2022, Asad A. Naqvi et. al., Aprotic lithium air batteries with oxygen-selective membranes , Table 1, https://link.springer.com…

Lithium ion is already over 250 Wh/kg so that calls into great suspect the rest of the numbers.

Not sure what over 250 Wh/kg means. Wikipedia mentions Specific energy 100–265 Wh/kg and Energy density 250–693 Wh/L quoting papers from 2010/1 and 2016/7 [1]. Other sources mention similar numbers (100-265 Wh/kg or 250-670 Wh/L) [2], although the research is ongoing: "Tesla’s new 4680 cells have an energy density of 272-296 Wh/kg and which is considered very high by current standards" [3].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery

[2] https://www.cei.washington.edu/education/science-of-solar/ba...

[3] https://thedriven.io/2023/04/03/scientists-hail-new-battery-...

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#808

Post by elihu »

legohead wrote: post #587
bagels wrote: post #2

"CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg which it says will go into mass production this year" This is a lot more credible than most of the battery stories, because CATL is already producing a ton of batteries, lending them some credibility. This is a little under 2x the density of current batteries.

My litmus test for battery/solar stories is: can you buy it? If not, consider it bullshit. At least these guys are announcing production.

There's also kind of a grey zone in there of "no, I can't buy it, but if I was a major car manufacturer I could." I wish we had access to all the good stuff as retail customers, but that's just not how it is.

(This is especially frustrating on the EV conversion front, since the best parts are usually unobtainable except from salvage vehicles. The products specifically made for EV conversion are usually rather underwhelming compared to what the OEMs can get.)

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#809

Post by u320 »

adrianN wrote: post #790
pl90087 wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that the same thing? Every ounce of oil coming out of the groud and getting burned ends up as CO2 in the atmosphere. Banning that has nothing to do with ICEs. You can run an ICE on synthetic fuels. It's not as energy-efficient but only half the efficiency from a renewable source is still better than "full" efficiency from a fossil source. If you _really_ must use an ICE, there will be a way. It won't be cheap,…

"Half the efficiency" is highly optimistic. Afaik making synfuels loses about 70% of the energy and then you burn the stuff in an engine that is at best 40% efficient. Meanwhile EVs have >70% wind turbine to wheel motion efficiency.

You can do better than that if you use the waste heat from thermal plants. Both for hydrogen production and co2 capture.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#810

Post by kwhitefoot »

steveBK123 wrote: post #496
kwhitefoot wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maximum heating power in my 2015 Tesla Model S 70D is 6 kW. Travelling for 100 km at 100 km/h costs about 25 kWh. I drive in shirtsleeves and barefoot in the Norwegian mountains at -20⁰C and the heater doesn't seem to be running hard. So unless you are traveling in severe arctic conditions the heater really isn't more than a few percent of the load. Teslabjørn has a video where he turned his Model X into a sauna gett…

Had a model 3 for 4 years, have another EV now. It really depends on the type of driving. Sure, if you are making a long road trip at high speeds then its probably negligible though still noticeable. But being in Northeast US with constant traffic.. I used to have to park outdoors so the car would get cold soaked down to 20F in winter, and never really have sufficient time to warm up unless I was going for a 1hr+ dri…

> never really have sufficient time to warm up unless I was going for a 1hr+ drive.

That's true. But I've never had anything like 800 Wh/mile in my Model S 70D not even pottering around at -20°C

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