CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg • Hacker News Board

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#431

Post by pl90087 » Fri, Apr 21, 2023, 1:09 PM UTC

tpmx wrote: post #281

iSnow wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't heard of any country that wants to ban existing ICE cars.

The urban greens in the previous Swedish government coalition wants to ban fossil-based petrol from being sold starting 2030 - which economically speaking is kind of the same thing.

How is that the same thing?

Every ounce of oil coming out of the groud and getting burned ends up as CO2 in the atmosphere. Banning that has nothing to do with ICEs.

You can run an ICE on synthetic fuels. It's not as energy-efficient but only half the efficiency from a renewable source is still better than "full" efficiency from a fossil source. If you _really_ must use an ICE, there will be a way. It won't be cheap, but it's your choice. There is no human right for cheap ICE fuel.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#432

Post by isolli » Fri, Apr 21, 2023, 1:10 PM UTC

Swannie wrote: post #196

mcapodici wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same with jet fuel on a plane. They calculate the amount to fuel carefully to be efficient but safe. Too much and the plane is heavier and uses more fuel. Too little and you might run out if put into a holding then diverted. Obviously jet fuel is what it is it wont get more dense but a more efficient engine means less fuel needed means even more efficiency and so on.

The Qantas 16h 45m flight from Dallas to Sydney aims for Brisbane, and then turns to Sydney as the plane approaches Australia. (10th longest commercial route in the world). This allows the plane to land at Brisbane and refuel if the calculations are done wrong. Couldn't find stats on how many times it's had to land in BNE. Pre-COVID, it was apparently common to try and off-load passengers to single stopover flights t…

It reminds me of this anecdote [0]:

An example is Singapore Airlines' former New York to Singapore flight, which could carry only 100 passengers (all business class) on the 10,300-mile (16,600 km) flight. According to an industry analyst, "It [was] pretty much a fuel tanker in the air."

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_economy_in_aircraft

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#433

Post by paconbork » Fri, Apr 21, 2023, 1:12 PM UTC

Akronymus wrote: post #193

nixass wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, not for another ~15 years and then I'll still be able to buy ICE car. EVs in current state are not so good and what's even worse new ICE cars are becoming shittier and shittier because of restrictions imposing on them

My biggest problem is that they target the individuals, rather than the actual big polluters. (Hell, carbon footprint was coined by the oil lobby.)

Who do you think purchases the products that heavy industry makes?

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#434

Post by 76SlashDolphin » Fri, Apr 21, 2023, 1:13 PM UTC

zirgs wrote: post #313

rob74 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This! I mean, we saw the same with computing: the first PCs cost thousands of dollars, but by the start of the nineties they were much more affordable already. Mostly because of technology advances and mass production, but of course also because of moving chip/board production to cheaper countries. Same with mobile phones, smartphones, laptops etc. etc.

PCs still cost thousands of dollars. If you are interested in AI/machine learning then $2k is the bare minimum.

Nah, a GTX 1060 6GB for $100 + any 10-year old i5/i7 is still surprisingly capable for messing about with ML. It's not fast but it gets the job done. Also, getting free compute for messing around in, say, Google Cloud is still pretty easy. If you get to the point where those 2 options become a bottleneck, you're probably informed enough to find work in the field and afford something nicer.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#435

Post by bluGill » Fri, Apr 21, 2023, 1:13 PM UTC

zirgs wrote: post #317

maccard wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Furthermore, the energy needed for takeoff is significantly higher than the energy for cruising. For an hour's flight, it's close to 50/50. The impact is disproportionately skewed towards shorter fkights

Wondering if we could build devices that assist with takeoff - like it's done on aircraft carriers. Could save some energy that way.

We could, but it would require new aircraft. Passenger aircraft are not designed for that kind of stress. I'm not sure that passengers would like that much acceleration either.

I don't know that it would actually save anything though. Aircraft of carriers are held back while they throttle the engine to full throttle. Only after the pilot is convinced the engine will run long enough to take off do they release the brakes - probably using more fuel than a regular takeoff. (the other option is to get in the air and then discover the engine isn't running and so you crash land a few meters later). I'd want a real aircraft engineer to speak to this.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#436

Post by jliptzin » Fri, Apr 21, 2023, 1:13 PM UTC

baq wrote: post #46

bagels wrote: post #2

"CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg which it says will go into mass production this year" This is a lot more credible than most of the battery stories, because CATL is already producing a ton of batteries, lending them some credibility. This is a little under 2x the density of current batteries.

My plan to buy an EV in the next five years may be realistic after all. Happy!

What is stopping you now?

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#437

Post by jakswa » Fri, Apr 21, 2023, 1:15 PM UTC

svnt wrote: post #331

leoedin wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The big reason for this is thermodynamics. A conventional internal combustion engine car has to convert chemical energy to kinetic energy - the absolute best theoretical efficiency of this might be 70%, but in practice it's more like 30%. Electric cars have to pay the same thermodynamic penalty, but they pay it at the power station (In practice, thanks to renewables, not all the electricity used to charge a car will…

It is a sign of the success of the oil industry that this analysis always takes the cost of electricity generation back to the source, but assumes that fuel stations pump from a perfect source of naturally refined/distilled hydrocarbons. It is surprisingly difficult to get numbers on how much oil is used to extract, refine and transport oil. The best I found was this: https://www.speakev.com/threads/energy-required-t…

It's getting pretty old now (maybe renewables have progressed) but Union of Concerned Scientists made a solid attempt: https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/cleaner-cars-cradle-grave

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#438

Post by 76SlashDolphin » Fri, Apr 21, 2023, 1:19 PM UTC

Glawen wrote: post #146

mpreda wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I on the other hand, I applaud the politicians who had the guts to push the ICE car sales ban against the push-back of the established cars manufacturers. ICE cars are such a nuisance in cities by polluting the air. I look forward to a time when my children will be able to enjoy clean air in the cities.

I call this egoism. Modern ecologism just aims to make a nice walled garden around their voters, they don't care what is happening outside this garden. In the reality, other parts of the country/earth is getting polluted to produce the goods. I much prefer the older ways with polluting factory in the city, at least everyone could see what it takes to provide each good, and share its cost. The current way of doing thi…

The thing is producing a product for the entire world in one place has massive economies of scale vs producing things locally in every other city or even 1 factory per country. While going back to Victorian-era local production would turn cities back into the garbage dumps they once were, I highly doubt it would end up lowering emissions.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#439

Post by bluGill » Fri, Apr 21, 2023, 1:24 PM UTC

sveme wrote: post #243

cultureswitch wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The timelines for ICE bans within a decade are ridiculous from a technology and market standpoint and terrible for the environment. The best car technology is the one you don't use much. And we already have decades of cars in good enough condition to be driven weekly rather than daily. EVs will barely scratch the surface of environmental issues with transportation. And they will create a new range of supply problems…

I think you should read up on what ICE bans in countries where they are implemented actually means. Hint: You can continue to use the ICE vehicle you bought in 2034 in the EU until infinity.

> You can continue to use the ICE vehicle you bought in 2034 in the EU until infinity.

Sure, if you can find fuel. By 2034 EVs will be enough of the market that gas stations are already closing (remember today new cars are 10 year old used cars, and there is every reason to think EVs will be half of all cars). There is still one on every corner, so you might not see this trend, but it will be in the statistics. By 2038 you will noticed it because many corners won't have a gas station at all. And of course the stations will already see this on the bottom line and will be less interested in replacing their pumps when the get old, and if they break they might just close that one island instead of fixing it. By 2045 fuel will be special order in most places.

Note that construction, freight, and other high energy use niches will still use a lot of fuel, so diesel will be available for a while longer. However those vehicles tend to use larger nozzles that won't fit in your diesel car. Gasoline will be hard to find - you can still make road trips, but you will need to plan your fuel stops like people plan EV charging today (on some roads you don't need to plan your EV charging, but there are others you must).

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#440

Post by bluGill » Fri, Apr 21, 2023, 1:25 PM UTC

em500 wrote: post #224

cultureswitch wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The timelines for ICE bans within a decade are ridiculous from a technology and market standpoint and terrible for the environment. The best car technology is the one you don't use much. And we already have decades of cars in good enough condition to be driven weekly rather than daily. EVs will barely scratch the surface of environmental issues with transportation. And they will create a new range of supply problems…

ICE bans apply to sales of new cars. It will take another 20 years or so after a ban before most of the existing stock of ICE is actually replaced.

It will be faster than you think, mostly because gas stations will be closing and so the inconvenience of fueling you car will cut that tail of - except for niches where EVs are particularly bad.