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CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

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Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#701

Post by diggernet »

scythe wrote: post #612
bagels wrote: post #2

"CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg which it says will go into mass production this year" This is a lot more credible than most of the battery stories, because CATL is already producing a ton of batteries, lending them some credibility. This is a little under 2x the density of current batteries.

>This is a little under 2x the density of [the best] current batteries. [brackets mine] But the best batteries contain unacceptably high levels of cobalt. Practical EV batteries are made with nickel or iron, maybe vanadium someday, and have lower density than pure LiCoO2. >CATL is already producing a ton of batteries, lending them some credibility. A couple of years ago CATL claimed that they had figured out how to m…

While I agree that the blurb you quote strongly implies that the sodium-ion batteries contain lithium, I don't think the article itself really says that.

> CATL and BYD's sodium-ion batteries will both be carried in mass-produced vehicles within the year, and they [the vehicle battery packs] will both be a mix of sodium-ion and lithium-ion batteries, according to a report by local media 36kr today.

By my reading of that, and the rest of the article, it's saying that the vehicle battery will be assembled from of a mix of sodium-ion and lithium-ion battery cells, not that the sodium-ion cells contain lithium.

> With its pioneering AB battery system integration technology, CATL has achieved a mix of sodium ion and lithium ion, allowing them to complement each other and thus increase the energy density of the battery system, Huang said at the time.

Basically, a "battery system" using only sodium-ion cells does not yet have enough energy density to support their range targets, so they are using a mix of cell types to improve the energy density and increase the vehicle range.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#702

Post by adoos »

s5300 wrote: post #636
rootusrootus wrote: post #610

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is eneloop not still very much a thing? Maybe not the brand, but the technology. The vast, vast majority of consumer devices using standardized battery sizes are AA or AAA, and that means NiMH. To go lithium means 18650, and I don't really see much of that happening outside flashlights and other niche products.

Why does going lithium mean 18650? 14500s have always existed. I think there’s even smaller than that but I haven’t personally checked in a bit.

Form factor smaller than 1865 with energy dense formula is rare. Chinese made LFP but only a handful of mfgs make them anymore. So size doesn't matter, but it basically matters :D

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#703

Post by rootusrootus »

steveBK123 wrote: post #489
dahfizz wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meh, the only reason EVs are more efficient in the city is because of regen braking. An ICE car traveling at a constant 30mph is going to get much better fuel economy than an ICE car traveling at a constant 75mph. The difference is that <=30mph roads usually have a lot of stop-and-go.

ICE efficiency also more driven by RPM & therefore where you are in the gears. So ICE designers have decisions to make about which speeds to optimize for. ICE peak efficiency tends to be more around 45mph than 30mph. But yes, the less you brake in an ICE, the more efficient. Hybrids give you a bit of the ICE range/highway efficiency with the EV city driving efficiency, with the added complexity of having ICE & EV und…

A modern 8-10 speed automatic transmission can easily put the engine at or near the ideal consumption RPM whether it's 30 mph or 80 mph.

If we really cared about efficiency, we'd have smaller motors. Throttling decreases efficiency, so the best mileage is going to be cruising at WOT (naively assuming no fuel mixture enrichment, which isn't always true). A classic example of this strategy is an old Geo Metro. Light, tiny motor, and barely capable of maintaining highway speed using peak horsepower.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#704

Post by nerpderp82 »

VBprogrammer wrote: post #122
mlsu wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the energy efficiency attainable by traveling in the upper atmosphere, this might be the greenest possible long range transportation. God such a tantalizing solar punk dream. I would love just to hear the inside of an electric commercial airliner at altitude.

Presumably they would use something like an electrically propelled ducted fan (basically the first stage of a high bypass engine). The noise I imagine would be reasonably similar.

I think a hybrid approach with a high bypass turbo fan powered by an electric motor. The fan could then switch over to a https://newatlas.com/automotive/inside-out-wankel/ when at cruising altitude. Using biofuels, or carbon air capture, we get long range and a closed carbon cycle.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#705

Post by nerpderp82 »

bluGill wrote: post #435
zirgs wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wondering if we could build devices that assist with takeoff - like it's done on aircraft carriers. Could save some energy that way.

We could, but it would require new aircraft. Passenger aircraft are not designed for that kind of stress. I'm not sure that passengers would like that much acceleration either. I don't know that it would actually save anything though. Aircraft of carriers are held back while they throttle the engine to full throttle. Only after the pilot is convinced the engine will run long enough to take off do they release the bra…

It is easy, you put small BLDCs in the wheels. No need to push on air while you are on the ground. You could also have basically a super car drone or a maglev rail under the plane, launch it into the sky.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#706

Post by fnordpiglet »

ricardobeat wrote: post #669
fnordpiglet wrote: post #649

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think F1 is going to save Saudi Aramco. People don’t generally need a super racing machine. Maxwells equations delivers a simpler machine that satisfies all needs of any user beyond the most exotic. The Rube Goldberg machine is the actual death of ICE - as a manufacturer, who have much more influence on cars, why do I want to build and design these incredibly complex machines when I could dramatically simplif…

F1 is like a test bed for new vehicle technology. It's not that you'll buy a race car, or a race car engine, but those discoveries will filter down into consumer products, like they have in the past: paddle shifters, KERS, hybrid engines, rear diffusers, traction control, drive by wire, the dual clutch, plus probably a ton of improvements in tires, fuel injection, safety, suspensions etc. So if a hybrid engine that s…

I can buy that. But I’ll bet you the marginal cost of all the added complexity will (as scales of economy in the EV manufacturing process) more than offset marginal engine efficiency gains, especially if electricity prices stay significantly cheaper than gasoline.

I think the reality is the ICE is a technology whose time has come. It’s overly complex and has to be close to optimal given the sheer time and energy spent perfecting it. The EV is far from optimality and it’s improvement rates will likely be staggering over the next 20 years. It’s ok. The ICE had its day, and it was cool. Now it’s time for flying drone cars.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#707

Post by jeffbee »

foota wrote: post #699
jeffbee wrote: post #658

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mass-producing IC engines, even complicated state-of-the-art ones, is exceedingly simple and cheap. Assembling an EV battery is actually pretty damned hard and energy-intensive. This is all reflected in the price. If it were easy to make an EV battery, they would cost less. If it was hard to make an IC engine, there would be no $4500 motorcycles.

To what degree do you think this reflects learning over time? My impression is that high precision manufacturing is something that we've gotten very good at, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's easy.

I don't see what the difference is between being good at something and it being easy. I think the prices of these things are indicative. The fact that an ICE has a bazillion parts is superficial, aesthetic, and irrelevant. A bicycle chain has 400 moving parts, state-of-the-art metallurgy, and costs $10.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#708

Post by scythe »

jackmott42 wrote: post #643
scythe wrote: post #612

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is a little under 2x the density of [the best] current batteries. [brackets mine] But the best batteries contain unacceptably high levels of cobalt. Practical EV batteries are made with nickel or iron, maybe vanadium someday, and have lower density than pure LiCoO2. >CATL is already producing a ton of batteries, lending them some credibility. A couple of years ago CATL claimed that they had figured out how to m…

My EV with cobalt in the batteries seemed practical to me. And nothing wrong with having some lithium in their battery. The important thing is how much cheaper is it.

Your EV probably has the usual NMC or NCA chemistries which have around 10-20% cobalt. I don't know of any car that uses a 100% LiCoO2 cathode — it's just not practical.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#709

Post by foota »

jeffbee wrote: post #707
foota wrote: post #699

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To what degree do you think this reflects learning over time? My impression is that high precision manufacturing is something that we've gotten very good at, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's easy.

I don't see what the difference is between being good at something and it being easy. I think the prices of these things are indicative. The fact that an ICE has a bazillion parts is superficial, aesthetic, and irrelevant. A bicycle chain has 400 moving parts, state-of-the-art metallurgy, and costs $10.

I guess it's a question of whether battery production will one day be easy as well. Certainly, 200 years ago modern ICE production wouldn't have been easy, so maybe we're just at a similar point in the history of battery production.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#710

Post by NDizzle »

geysersam wrote: post #202
theK wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m afraid these bans get systematically sabotaged by well funded ice lobby groups. Just look at what happened to the EU’s ice ban for personal vehicles. Spoiler: while new gasoline burning cars are technically banned after 2035 it will be completely legal to sell new gasoline burning cars by labelling them e-fuel only…

Why would anyone want to use e-fuel in 2035 instead of electricity? (Except for "luxury" brands that just want to be special to distinguish themselves from the rabble.)

I'll still be driving my land cruiser in 2035.
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