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CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

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Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#221

Post by plantain »

krasin wrote: post #19
idontwantthis wrote: post #4

Why does 500wh/kg make electric aircraft possible? 6x less than kerosene. Is that the break even on cost if you can source very cheap electricity? Seems like it would still annihilate the payload/range.

Let's consider Cessna-172S ([4]). Its characteristics: - 130 kW engine, Lycoming_O-360 that weighs 117 kg. For comparison, an electric motor of this range would weigh 11-13 kg (at 10-12 kW/kg, [2]). That saves 100+ kg weight immediately and we can put 50+ kWh batteries instead. - It carries up to 200 liters of kerosene ([3]), which weighs 164 kg. We can place 82 kWh of batteries instead. - The engine consumes around…

The point not considered is the Cessna 172 is an extraordinarily draggy airframe - it didn't need to be clean and laminar because fuel was (relatively) cheap.

Electric aircraft of the future will have half the drag or less. High aspect ratios, flush fairings, streamlined cockpits etc.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#222

Post by frant-hartm »

bsaul wrote: post #136
pelorat wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In ~15 years if you buy an ICE you also need to afford the gas.

in 15 years there will be so few ice cars on the roads that gas could very well be cheaper than electricity. Finding a gas station may be problematic ( although i doubt truck will move to electricity that soon)

Average car age in US and EU is somewhere around 12 years. EVs are still a minority (growing, but less than 50 % and it will stay that way for a few years).

Most of the ICE cars sold now will be on the roads in 15 years.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#223

Post by maccard »

regularfry wrote: post #180
baq wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the tech takes off (pun intended) every major airport will need a SMR. Which is maybe good? But politically impractical today .

Less of the "S". With current flight patterns you need multiple gigawatts. Calculations based on 737s leaving Gatwick: Energy density of the fuel: 9.6kWh/L 900 flights per day = one flight every 96 seconds 26024.706L per flight Total energy per flight: 9.6 x 26024.706kWh = 250MWh give or take = 900GJ Total power supplied from Gatwick in the form of aviation fuel: 900GJ/96s = 9.375GW. That's not only outside the range…

That's assuming an overnight switch from what we have to all electric, for one of the busiest airports in the world.

Thinking in terms of disruption (from the innovator sense), their top 3 destinations [0] are Dublin, Barcelona and Malaga. Skipping barcelona becauese it's as busy, I don't think it's out of reach to consider that a 737 could do a return trip to dublin or Malaga without charging.

Another perspective is that taking off is significantly more energy intensive than cruising. According to [1], takeoff is equivalent to an hour of cruising. One way of looking at this is it only makes sense for mid haul travel instead. If we replaced transatlantic flights, or similar (us to Europe maybe) the savings would be immense and significantly more achievable

[0] https://www.gatwickairport.com/business-community/about-gatw...

[1] https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/47262/how-much-....

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#224

Post by em500 »

cultureswitch wrote: post #204
theK wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m afraid these bans get systematically sabotaged by well funded ice lobby groups. Just look at what happened to the EU’s ice ban for personal vehicles. Spoiler: while new gasoline burning cars are technically banned after 2035 it will be completely legal to sell new gasoline burning cars by labelling them e-fuel only…

The timelines for ICE bans within a decade are ridiculous from a technology and market standpoint and terrible for the environment. The best car technology is the one you don't use much. And we already have decades of cars in good enough condition to be driven weekly rather than daily. EVs will barely scratch the surface of environmental issues with transportation. And they will create a new range of supply problems…

ICE bans apply to sales of new cars. It will take another 20 years or so after a ban before most of the existing stock of ICE is actually replaced.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#225

Post by msravi »

mnw21cam wrote: post #218
msravi wrote: post #133

I just realized how much energy efficiency is being squeezed out of a Tesla. It's incredible. A normal diesel fueled sedan such as the Chevy Cruze diesel runs at about 31mpg, which is 13.2 km/l or 15.3 km/kg. Diesel has a mind-boggling 12700 Wh/kg energy density[1], which translates to an efficiency of ~827 Wh/km for the Chevy. By contrast, the Tesla Model S, has a ~540 kg battery[2]. At 272 Wh/kg (from the posted ar…

Maths check - 31mpg is 11km/l. (31mi/gal * 1.60934mi/km / 4.54609l/gal) Having said that, my 13-year-old normal sized diesel car does 60mpg in normal use.

A US gallon is 3.785 liters...

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#226

Post by maccard »

VilleOr wrote: post #211
AdrianB1 wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Average plane cannot fly with batteries; the weight is still too high compared to jet fuel and the range is too short. Only short flights of up to 1000 km and 90 minutes will be in reach initially, jet fuel minus efficiency loses is still over 3000 Wh/kg, 6 times more than these new batteries.

Average US flight trip is about 800 km (~500 miles). If even half of all flights were powered by electricity, the impact on emissions would be huge.

Furthermore, the energy needed for takeoff is significantly higher than the energy for cruising. For an hour's flight, it's close to 50/50. The impact is disproportionately skewed towards shorter fkights

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#227

Post by mdp2021 »

geysersam wrote: post #202
theK wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m afraid these bans get systematically sabotaged by well funded ice lobby groups. Just look at what happened to the EU’s ice ban for personal vehicles. Spoiler: while new gasoline burning cars are technically banned after 2035 it will be completely legal to sell new gasoline burning cars by labelling them e-fuel only…

Why would anyone want to use e-fuel in 2035 instead of electricity? (Except for "luxury" brands that just want to be special to distinguish themselves from the rabble.)

> Why would anyone want to use e-fuel in 2035 instead of electricity

It will depend on their needs and if the device covers them. For example (as said already even here): long distance travel, practicality of refuelling (no, the need of some will not be fulfilled by leaving the car in charge nightly), decent technology (e.g. some will refuse to own an internet connected vehicle).

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#228

Post by Tade0 »

> During the presentation, CATL said its working with partners on the development of electric passenger aircraft practicing aviation-level standards and testing in accordance with aviation-grade safety and quality requirements.

Get ready for passenger drones[0], delivery drones[1] and just drones in general, because this is what this breakthrough means really.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lw6HDgv4ekE

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOWDNBu9DkU

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#229

Post by spacebanana7 »

grosun wrote: post #212
VulgarExigency wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not that confusing, only the US measures fuel in gallons, isn't it? Everyone else just uses liters.

The UK may be the most confusing; fuel is sold in litres, but fuel efficiency is expressed in MPG, and furthermore the gallons aren't the same as US gallons. I guess at least the miles are the same!

I suspect the British fuel system is designed to hide the cost per mile of driving, at least tacitly. At present it's difficult to work out without some external tool.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#230

Post by londons_explore »

tecleandor wrote: post #207
onion2k wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BMW claim that a diesel 3 series will get 61mpg. Volkswagen reckon a Golf 2.0 TDI will do 68mpg. Electric is still significantly better, but you didn't need pick a terrible diesel car as an example.

The Cruze is way better than that anyway, you'd need to be in an excruciating traffic jam to get that low mileage. Well, my 12 years old (gas) Honda Fit does +40MPG being very "pedal happy" and near 50 driving normally, and my dad's 20 years old (diesel) Citroen Xsara Picasso does around 60MPG

Due to dieselgate, there was a peak in diesel car efficiency around 2006. Post 2006 diesels get less fuel efficiency, because they had to tweak the engines to lower the combustion temperature to reduce NOX emissions. (which also reduces efficiency).
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