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CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

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Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#181

> World’s largest battery maker announces major breakthrough in energy density > This is a little under 2x the density of current batteries. Anything less than a ~400x increase is a minor breakthrough based on my expectations. I would like to charge my phone once a year.

Do you not feel this is an unreasonable expectation? I wouldn’t think we would ever get to the point where phones are only charged once a year. This assumes that power consumption would not increase over time.

Yup, OP forgot engineers also expand.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#182
post #55
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The airplane would be a bit heavier at landing, though. I expect that will require a somewhat heavier landing gear. I also think taking out the weight of the tank is unfair if you don’t add weight for the structures for holding the batteries. But yes, for many smaller planes, we’re close to flying electric on shorter flights being economically feasible.

Maybe dropping battery just before landing could be a thing - on a small parachute or some catch ground in front of landing strip. Silly as it sounds just thinking :)

I have an imagined invention where battery packs drop off an electric jet as it cruises and they glide to a landing somewhere when they are out of power.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#183
post #125
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the energy efficiency attainable by traveling in the upper atmosphere, this might be the greenest possible long range transportation. God such a tantalizing solar punk dream. I would love just to hear the inside of an electric commercial airliner at altitude.

I doubt it would be classical music and whale song playing over a beautifully calm scene.. More like kids watching movies without headphones, over loud conversations and screaming babies if other public transport is anything to go by. But we can dream!

Experiences vary. I was on a Tokyo subway train (Chūō-Sōbu Line(Local)). For a couple of minutes after boarding it was so quiet that it was eerie. When I started hearing quiet noises I relaxed.

Anyway, mass transit does not have to be noisy. It varies by custom and culture.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#185
post #133

I just realized how much energy efficiency is being squeezed out of a Tesla. It's incredible. A normal diesel fueled sedan such as the Chevy Cruze diesel runs at about 31mpg, which is 13.2 km/l or 15.3 km/kg. Diesel has a mind-boggling 12700 Wh/kg energy density[1], which translates to an efficiency of ~827 Wh/km for the Chevy. By contrast, the Tesla Model S, has a ~540 kg battery[2]. At 272 Wh/kg (from the posted ar…

BMW claim that a diesel 3 series will get 61mpg. Volkswagen reckon a Golf 2.0 TDI will do 68mpg. Electric is still significantly better, but you didn't need pick a terrible diesel car as an example.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#186
post #2

"CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg which it says will go into mass production this year" This is a lot more credible than most of the battery stories, because CATL is already producing a ton of batteries, lending them some credibility. This is a little under 2x the density of current batteries.

And the final sentence: > What makes CATL’s announcement this week truly groundbreaking is that the condensed battery will go into mass production this year.

wow that's really cool, taking into account all shortages/crisis/war, it's really fast

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#187
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may not have a choice in the matter as more and more countries are thinking of/implementing ICE bans in the near future.

They're unlikely to succeed because if the massive tax on poor people (ICE bans) actually gets implemented, all of the poor people who are forced to buy an unaffordable EV will vote for populists promising to unwind the bans.

People don't always manage to vote their interests even if/when they manage to rationally identify what those are. Welcome to politics.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#188
post #154
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regen braking will do that. I suspect it’d be a much closer competition at, say, 80mph stead state.

Gasoline internal combustion engines run at about 30% efficiency. Diesel does somewhat better at about 40% for car size engines, and about 50% for the really big ones. Electric motors easily exceed 90% efficiency. The EV wins even without regenerative breaking, even accounting for the losses in the batteries.

It's somewhat matched if the electricity is generated by combustion. Even then, if the power is generated using an efficient cycle (e.g. CCGT) the EV still tends to come out ahead.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#189
post #133

I just realized how much energy efficiency is being squeezed out of a Tesla. It's incredible. A normal diesel fueled sedan such as the Chevy Cruze diesel runs at about 31mpg, which is 13.2 km/l or 15.3 km/kg. Diesel has a mind-boggling 12700 Wh/kg energy density[1], which translates to an efficiency of ~827 Wh/km for the Chevy. By contrast, the Tesla Model S, has a ~540 kg battery[2]. At 272 Wh/kg (from the posted ar…

The big reason for this is thermodynamics. A conventional internal combustion engine car has to convert chemical energy to kinetic energy - the absolute best theoretical efficiency of this might be 70%, but in practice it's more like 30%. Electric cars have to pay the same thermodynamic penalty, but they pay it at the power station (In practice, thanks to renewables, not all the electricity used to charge a car will come from hydrocarbons - but let's assume it does for ease of comparison sakes). It's much easier to build highly efficient hydrocarbon power stations - typical efficiencies range from 40-60%.

So when you look at the headline "efficiency" of an electric car, you need to take that thermodynamic penalty into account first.

A modern series hybrid like a Toyota Prius is effectively an electric vehicle and a gas generator (which means it has the same efficiency gains due to regenerative braking). That gets 52 mpg, which is about 493 Wh/km. If you generated the 225 Wh the Tesla needs in even the most efficient combined cycle gas turbine powerplant you'd need 375 Wh. Less - but not nearly as drastic as it first seems.

Renewables change the picture though - once you have significant renewable generation the carbon intensity of electricity starts dropping, which means that remote powerplant vs local powerplant argument falls apart. That is when the real power of electric vehicles kicks in - they can take their energy from anywhere.

Re: CATL has announced a new “condensed” battery with 500 Wh/kg

#190
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're unlikely to succeed because if the massive tax on poor people (ICE bans) actually gets implemented, all of the poor people who are forced to buy an unaffordable EV will vote for populists promising to unwind the bans.

The cheap EVs aren't here yet, but the technology has the potential to eventually become cheaper than ICE. 30% of EV cost is currently in the battery, and this will drop.

This! I mean, we saw the same with computing: the first PCs cost thousands of dollars, but by the start of the nineties they were much more affordable already. Mostly because of technology advances and mass production, but of course also because of moving chip/board production to cheaper countries. Same with mobile phones, smartphones, laptops etc. etc.
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