ManyCam dishonored my lifetime license • Hacker News Board

Re: ManyCam dishonored my lifetime license

#261

Post by rahimnathwani » Wed, Apr 12, 2023, 6:29 PM UTC

MrGilbert wrote: post #15

Happy Scale, a weight tracking app I really enjoy, had the opposite example: I bought a full license for some bucks some years ago, and later they decided to switch to a subscription based model to ensure funding. Instead of going the "hey, here is a new version of the app, you need to subscribe now", they explicitly included a thank-you note directed at everyone that bought the "Premium In-App Purchase" at the begin…

Overcast (Marco Arment's podcast app for iOS) did something similar.

Originally it was an ad-free freemium app. A one-time IAP unlocked premium features (£2.99).

Then all features we made free for all users. (People who already paid were no worse off.)

Then ads were added, even for people who had paid the one-off £2.99 early on. The only way to get rid of them is to pay an annual subscription fee.

The amounts are small, and the app is great. It's not easy to keep everyone happy and build a sustainable business at the same time.

Re: ManyCam dishonored my lifetime license

#262

Post by Shish2k » Wed, Apr 12, 2023, 6:57 PM UTC

corndoge wrote: post #127

ejb999 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+1 for naming jetbrains - I have always liked their way of doing business, including the substantial discount to renew each year - even in years when I don't use their tools much, I renew. Also specifically like how they remind me many times , and many months in advance that they are going to charge my credit card on my renewal date - unlike the scumbag companies that never want to draw attention to your upcoming ren…

The key for getting a refund is to not deal with the company at all but rather initiate a credit card chargeback.

Cineworld (the main cinema chain round here) mentions in their membership small print that if the credit card transaction fails for whatever reason, they will send debt collectors to hunt you down...

Re: ManyCam dishonored my lifetime license

#263

Post by Veserv » Wed, Apr 12, 2023, 7:24 PM UTC

dahart wrote: post #174

crazygringo wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the previous owners were truly committed to upholding the lifetime license, they would have never sold the company without an ironclad legally enforceable guarantee the new owners would uphold the lifetime license as well. They clearly didn't. They either didn't care, or it would have decreased the sale price of the company (or the ability to sell it at all) and they preferred the money. So I absolutely hold the o…

Why do you believe the contract with the customer isn’t legally enforceable? The new owners may just be choosing to break the law because they believe nobody will attempt to sue them over fifty bucks or whatever. I guess you can decide to blame whoever you want, but the legal responsibility for upholding a contract lies with the company , and a change of ownership doesn’t change that from a legal perspective. It also…

It is absolutely lying. The original owners could have put in a voluntary, irrevocable, liquidated damages clause that is sufficiently punitive that no subsequent owner of the company would think to violate it. As they intend to honor the “lifetime license” for a lifetime and totally do not intend to renege for that duration there is no harm in enforcing that clause with force of law.

Re: ManyCam dishonored my lifetime license

#264

Post by aflag » Wed, Apr 12, 2023, 7:26 PM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #165

dahart wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ugh, please don’t make it worse and escalate to “lie”. You’re blaming the wrong source, and have it backwards IMO. The previous owners weren’t lying, the new owners are the ones to blame for breaking a pre-existing contract with the company. Breaking this contract might not be legal, and in that sense they may be only the ones lying.

If the previous owners were truly committed to upholding the lifetime license, they would have never sold the company without an ironclad legally enforceable guarantee the new owners would uphold the lifetime license as well. They clearly didn't. They either didn't care, or it would have decreased the sale price of the company (or the ability to sell it at all) and they preferred the money. So I absolutely hold the o…

To be fair, lifetime may refer to the life of the company and not the customer :P

Re: ManyCam dishonored my lifetime license

#265

Post by freeone3000 » Wed, Apr 12, 2023, 7:34 PM UTC

fnordpiglet wrote: post #178

freeone3000 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People must be held accountable for their actions; if it cannot be through self-governance, their reputation must meet needs.

Take them to court. File a grievance. But opening individuals to ruin by internet trolls for lulz, or worse making everyone’s life dictated by collaborative filtering - there’s no good to come of it. Human lives aren’t like product reviews. Scarlet lettering people isn’t a good idea - maybe it works for some, but there will be a lot of innocent people destroyed along the way. Or, people who made unethical decisions a…

The court system has decided that individuals aren’t liable for their actions taken on behalf of a company, but the company is. But a company is merely a temporary arrangement of people! It can be dissolved and reformed any number of times with any number of names with only marginal annoyance. The corporation is the end of responsibility.

Re: ManyCam dishonored my lifetime license

#266

Post by mthoms » Wed, Apr 12, 2023, 7:59 PM UTC

iudqnolq wrote: post #260

mthoms wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>you could keep using the last version forever Note that this isn't what Jetbrains does. You only have a perpetual license to the version released when the subscription started . Thus, you'll have to downgrade and say good-bye to any features and fixes released over the term of your subscription.

Not quite: once you've paid for a version for twelve consecutive months you get a perpetual license to that version. If you unsubscribe you keep your perpetual licenses.

Sorry, but you're wrong. This misconception is very common.

https://sales.jetbrains.com/hc/en-gb/articles/207240845-What...

See here in particular

https://sales.jetbrains.com/hc/article_attachments/203511589...

Re: ManyCam dishonored my lifetime license

#267

Post by mthoms » Wed, Apr 12, 2023, 8:01 PM UTC

mattl wrote: post #253

mthoms wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They still require you to downgrade if you let your subscription expire. Users have a perpetual license to the version released when the subscription started and not when it ended . Thus, if you let your subscription expire, you need to downgrade the software you already have installed on your system. On the surface, it's not that big of a deal. But there's no guarantee that your downgrade will occur gracefully. It c…

It seems like you get all the versions you've paid for. "You will receive perpetual fallback licenses for every version you’ve paid 12 consecutive months for." https://sales.jetbrains.com/hc/en-gb/articles/207240845-What...

Yes, you do receive a perpetual fallback license. But it's for the version that was out when you started your subscription.

https://sales.jetbrains.com/hc/article_attachments/203511589...

Re: ManyCam dishonored my lifetime license

#268

Post by mrguyorama » Wed, Apr 12, 2023, 8:03 PM UTC

Pxtl wrote: post #64

KMnO4 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine this is one of those extremely common situations where the law doesn’t matter. Even if you are entitled to some compensation, how are you going to get it? The only recourse is taking them to court which will end up costing your time, money, and sanity.

I mean if there are a large enough group of users with that lifetime license a class-action might be worthwhile for an enterprising law firm.

Name a class action suit that harmed a business enough that the violation they committed was no longer profitable.

Re: ManyCam dishonored my lifetime license

#269

Post by dahart » Wed, Apr 12, 2023, 8:15 PM UTC

Veserv wrote: post #263

dahart wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you believe the contract with the customer isn’t legally enforceable? The new owners may just be choosing to break the law because they believe nobody will attempt to sue them over fifty bucks or whatever. I guess you can decide to blame whoever you want, but the legal responsibility for upholding a contract lies with the company , and a change of ownership doesn’t change that from a legal perspective. It also…

It is absolutely lying. The original owners could have put in a voluntary, irrevocable, liquidated damages clause that is sufficiently punitive that no subsequent owner of the company would think to violate it. As they intend to honor the “lifetime license” for a lifetime and totally do not intend to renege for that duration there is no harm in enforcing that clause with force of law.

You didn’t even consider the question I asked. Why are you making the assumption that sale of a lifetime license isn’t currently enforceable by law? The article only complained and didn’t attempt to challenge their license. Your idea only works if someone is willing to challenge the company. If the new owners of a company are choosing to break the contracts or the law, why would you expect another contract to help?

There are a million and one promises companies have made to customers and other companies by the time they are acquired. Installing clauses like you suggest for all of them is wildly unrealistic, would be very expensive in billable lawyer hours, may delay or subvert the sale, and above all may be unnecessary/unhelpful/confusing if the existing customer contract is already legally binding.

Re: ManyCam dishonored my lifetime license

#270

Post by iudqnolq » Wed, Apr 12, 2023, 8:35 PM UTC

mthoms wrote: post #266

iudqnolq wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not quite: once you've paid for a version for twelve consecutive months you get a perpetual license to that version. If you unsubscribe you keep your perpetual licenses.

Sorry, but you're wrong. This misconception is very common. https://sales.jetbrains.com/hc/en-gb/articles/207240845-What... See here in particular https://sales.jetbrains.com/hc/article_attachments/203511589...

From your first link:

> If paying on a monthly basis, as soon as you pay for 12 consecutive months, you will receive this perpetual fallback license providing you with access to the exact product version for when your 12 consecutive months subscription started. You will receive perpetual fallback licenses for every version you’ve paid 12 consecutive months for. (emphasis added)

What did I get wrong?