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Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

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Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#231

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

roenxi wrote: post #131
piva00 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I've seen what solidarity (without the scary quotes) did to Sweden (and other Nordics), Germany, etc. as societies for the working class. A union is not a guild, it's not about creating barriers of entry like in law or medicine, unsure why you conflate those concepts. Perhaps it's from ignorance, or perhaps from the fears that the ruling class instilled into you.

If we're going to copy the Nordics, someone is going to have to start by translating their laws into English so we know what it is they are actually doing. I don't like arguing based on what they are hypothetically doing and I don't think many of the people pointing at them as an example know either. They're tiny, homogeneous and Norway has obscene oil wealth. It isn't obvious we can copy them piecemeal, even if it d…

Here's a few EU and Europe technology companies I could find information on, including their market capitalisation:

  ASML (Netherlands, Market cap: $262.07 Billion)
  Accenture (Ireland, Market cap: $171.21 Billion)
  Deutsche Telekom (Germany, Market cap: $118.43 Billion)
  Schneider Electric (France, Market cap: $91.00 Billion)
  Dassault Systèmes (France, Market cap: $54.24 Billion)
  Adyen (Netherlands, Market cap: $48.95 Billion)
  NXP Semiconductors (Netherlands, Market cap: $47.24 Billion)
  Orange (France, Market cap: $31.21 Billion)
  SAP (Germany, Market cap: $31.21 Billion)
  Ericsson (Sweden,Market cap: $31.21 Billion)
  Vodafone (UK, Market cap: $30.67 Billion)
  STMicroelectronics (Switzerland, Market cap: $45.92 Billion)
  Infineon (Germany, Market cap: $50.75 Billion)
  TE Connectivity (Switzerland, Market cap: $39.56 Billion)
  Amadeus IT Group (Spain, Market cap: $28.69 Billion)
  Nokia (Nokia, Market cap: $26.18 Billion)
  Cellnex Telecom (Spain, Market cap: $26.24 Billion)
  Spotify (Sweden, Market cap: $25.34 Billion)
Note that I selected those for being strictly "tech", as in software, electronics and telecoms. That leaves out plenty of big names in other sectors like fintech, or biotech, etc. For example:

  AstraZeneca (UK, Market cap: $209.57 Billion)
  Novo Nordisk (Denmark, Market cap: $338.28 Billion)
  Siemens (Germany, Market cap: $117.07 Billion)
  Air Liquide (France, Market cap: $85.75 Billion)
And so on.

Note that the EU is 28 independent countries in a common market being built in the last 40 years or so whereas the US is one country, so the comparison is not straightforward. For example, Orange's $31 billion may not be a lot compared to Apple or Gogole, but France is ~70 million people whereas the US is ~330 million.

Edit: info from:

https://companiesmarketcap.com/

Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#232

Post by th13row »

ktosobcy wrote: post #230
th13row wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not from the UK, I'm from South America. It doesn't matter though, both the UK and the EU will crumble apart so fast that I'm already expecting the hordes of expats trying to find refuge here. Which is funny, because SA lives in a perpetual economic and social crisis, but even still, even a poor and somewhat corrupted country like Bolivia or Paraguay is a better prospect than living in a dystopian communist hellh…

> I'm not from the UK, Never said you were. Only that you sound like a Brit... > I'm from South America. Greetings from Chile, the lovely state of estallido social de 2019 :P > It doesn't matter though, both the UK and the EU will crumble apart so fast that Lol, we've been hearing this as well for the past 20-30 years, mostly from the UK press and Leave campaign :D > I'm already expecting the hordes of expats trying…

Haha you're right, but as I always say, Latam, despite becoming red all over, is too corrupt/poor/unstable/inept to pull anything off. There are talks of a single currency ("Sur") which will never happen because Brasil doesn't want to hold Argentina's bags, because there's always been a grudge among many of these countries.

Furthermore, there's a philosophy here: many rules, barely any enforcement (because of reasons stated above).

Ultimately I believe that the EU does have the capacity to do what they say. That's whats scary. Mercosur, not so much.

Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#233

Post by polski-g »

nonethewiser wrote: post #11
bdw5204 wrote: post #3

From the article, it isn't clear whether a pay range of minimum wage to 1 million euros would be in compliance with this new rule. This is an actual tactic that many US employers have used to follow the letter but not the spirit of salary transparency laws.

I have also seen them spelled out in massive walls of text. Petty as fuck. Carefully scan the disclaimer section at the bottom for: > Colorado, New York City, California, and Washington Candidates Only. The salary range for this position is seventy thousand dollars to one hundred forty-seven thousand five hundred dollars. https://www.myrocketcareer.com/job-detail-page/16777898/soft...

That sounds like an acceptable range for a job posting.

Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#234

Post by xboxnolifes »

x-complexity wrote: post #102

Self-publishing salary ranges without intense oversight will likely not properly work unless the following are fully utilized & followed to the letter: - The company in question can only use salaries of existing roles, with string Levenshtein distance of 3 [0]. If it's a new role within the company, they're mandated to use the government's average salary. - The company can only use the term "Expect {low_bound} - {hig…

So, if a company is hiring for a new role they they are not yet paying anyone for, they cannot offer more than 1.15x the government average?

Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#235

Post by x-complexity »

troad wrote: post #108
x-complexity wrote: post #102

Self-publishing salary ranges without intense oversight will likely not properly work unless the following are fully utilized & followed to the letter: - The company in question can only use salaries of existing roles, with string Levenshtein distance of 3 [0]. If it's a new role within the company, they're mandated to use the government's average salary. - The company can only use the term "Expect {low_bound} - {hig…

Yes god forbid employers are allowed to - checks notes - set wages. The Ministry of Truth knows better than they do what they can afford to pay for a given role! I applaud efforts to make companies publish salary ranges. It corrects an information disparity that leads to inefficiency. But what you propose (basically government-set salaries) is economically illiterate and would do nothing but harm employers and employ…

> Yes god forbid employers are allowed to - checks notes - set wages. The Ministry of Truth knows better than they do what they can afford to pay for a given role!

> I applaud efforts to make companies publish salary ranges. It corrects an information disparity that leads to inefficiency. But what you propose (basically government-set salaries) is economically illiterate and would do nothing but harm employers and employees alike (not to mention the broader economy).

As noted in the provided definitions, the company can set their own ranges if they have existing staff that are currently performing the defined role. As noted here:

> (low_bound := min(current_salaries_for_role || government_average) * 0.85), and

> (high_bound := max(current_salaries_for_role || government_average) * 1.15)

if len(current_salaries_for_role) > 0, then the company can use it's own salaries for its own ranges.

Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#236

Post by x-complexity »

xboxnolifes wrote: post #234
x-complexity wrote: post #102

Self-publishing salary ranges without intense oversight will likely not properly work unless the following are fully utilized & followed to the letter: - The company in question can only use salaries of existing roles, with string Levenshtein distance of 3 [0]. If it's a new role within the company, they're mandated to use the government's average salary. - The company can only use the term "Expect {low_bound} - {hig…

So, if a company is hiring for a new role they they are not yet paying anyone for, they cannot offer more than 1.15x the government average?

> So, if a company is hiring for a new role they they are not yet paying anyone for, they cannot offer more than 1.15x the government average?

They can: The government average is just the starting point for salary negotiations for the worker - It gives them a leg up on what the industry pays on average.

There's also a hidden information advantage for the employee: If the company in question advertises that average, and the say that it's a new position, then the worst that they can offer is around the industry average, with higher salaries up for grabs. The "Expect" is doing a lot of heavy lifting, as it says "There's probably an 80% chance you're getting a salary within this range.", with new positions advertising as "This is a new position, so there's a higher chance of getting a good salary here."

Not all permutations of meta-analyses can be avoided, but the scope of what's allowed can be trimmed down to the point where it's possible for an applicant to guess what the company wants in terms of salary expectations.

Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#237

Post by junto »

kalnins wrote: post #68

There is an interesting side effect here. Salaries throughout EU vary a lot. This will give people chance to better understand the salary differences between countries.

Realistically the gross salary has very little bearing in the net salary between EU countries. Taxation, social contributions and health care deductions at source are vastly different.

Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#238

Post by robertlagrant »

bigbillheck wrote: post #228
robertlagrant wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost all countries were not devastated by two world wars.

Most of the ones that weren't were previously devastated by colonialism.

Well, that applies to the US as well.

Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#239

Post by robertlagrant »

tfourb wrote: post #225
robertlagrant wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't say that hard work is all that matters.

You said it is "mostly not luck". I said and believe I did at least prove to a first approximation that it is indeed mostly luck. Yes, hard work matters at the margin. Among the people I studied with, those with a good work ethic are mostly in a better place today than those who slacked during college. But we were all able to attend college in the first place because we were very lucky, not because of any particular…

I more meant that I don't split things up into "luck" and "hard work" - I think that's too broad. However, sticking to your framing, I would say a lot of that thing you call luck is the hard work of your parents, or their parents.

Eventually you can trace that back to more significant events - being invaded by the right people can jump-start your civilisation (e.g. Britain being invaded by the Romans). Equally, being invaded by the wrong civilisation can be devastating.

Or, say, sticking with Britain: the amount of thought and intellectual and cultural superstructure that had to go into the events that led up, say, to the signing of the Magna Carta, is enormous. The whole raft of arduous work that up to that point is just crazy. Or the building of Oxford University. Having a culture that is able and willing to instute massive, long-term investments is the result of a lot of hard work and intelligent thought.

And some luck - being close to Europe and the Middle East and being relatively to the world back then was definitely lucky. But luck isn't most of it. Even all the effort of translation and diplomacy and inventing ships and bearing the risk of travel was all hard work, translating that location into something useful.

Which, in an anthropic principle sort of way, does lead us to be something you could call "lucky" today. But it's not unearned luck. It's luck other people made for us. And for me, working hard to build things that are good and will (or their future iterations) survive me is the best way to make tomorrow's "luck".

Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#240

Post by bigbillheck »

robertlagrant wrote: post #238
bigbillheck wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the ones that weren't were previously devastated by colonialism.

Well, that applies to the US as well.

Not really? The indigenous peoples of North America were absolutely devastated by colonialism but it was the United States doing the devastating.
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