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Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

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Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#161

Post by yobbo »

HEmanZ wrote: post #111
atoav wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Narcissism. [polemic rant incoming] They believe they are exceptional and deserve even higher pay than the ones listed, that the leopards-eating-peoples-faces-party won't eat their faces if they vote for it, that they are just temporarily embarrassed billionaires in a bit of a ruffle and golden times are just around the corner, they believe that they are better off if their surroundings are worse off, that the invisi…

I really think you strawman to the extreme with this. I’ve never met one of these people, but on the internet they get made up because they need to exist in order for posters to feel so justified and unarguably right in their political opinions.

Rather, the point of caricature is to make something recognizable by exaggerating the distinguishing features.

Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#162

Post by robertlagrant »

tfourb wrote: post #154
roenxi wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we're going to copy the Nordics, someone is going to have to start by translating their laws into English so we know what it is they are actually doing. I don't like arguing based on what they are hypothetically doing and I don't think many of the people pointing at them as an example know either. They're tiny, homogeneous and Norway has obscene oil wealth. It isn't obvious we can copy them piecemeal, even if it d…

Salaries in Germany (and other European countries) are lower than in the US because German citizens receive a lot of benefits through government budgets that US citizens can only dream of. healthcare, essentially free higher education on a level easily comparable to most U.S. universities, better quality primary and secondary education, free or low cost (depending on the state) childcare from age 2-3, comparatively d…

> (and it is mostly luck, don't kid yourself)

This is a big misconception. It's mostly not luck.

Different societies can and do focus on different things. The US focuses a lot more on innovation and progress, and invents and pioneers a lot of the things that other societies, who spend their money on other things, then get to benefit from. Sadly, some of the occupants of the latter also taking a moral stand against the economic and social differencies that create those advances.

Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#163

Post by robertlagrant »

gnz11 wrote: post #160
ExoticPearTree wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Equality is a socialist fairytale and unions is what keeps innovation from happening. All they want is for all workers to earn the same wage because equality and other BS like this, stifle the company from firing people when they're not needed anymore and so on. As an employee you need to be able to earn as much as possible and climb the ladder as high as possible with no impediments to this. And yes, be the next tec…

This ignores all of the decades of government and university research and funding that went into these technological advances. The US also had the great advantage of being one of the only countries to not be completely devastated by two World Wars.

Almost all countries were not devastated by two world wars.

Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#164

Post by namaria »

solarkraft wrote: post #114
namaria wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But this will be great for Italy because a huge problem of our labor market is that salary is considered something dirty Truly. Employees being termed "dependents" of the company is a big tell on Italy's work culture. I can also vouch for the toxicity of the Brazilian labor market. Every middling manager carries on like a petty feudal lord...

> Employees being termed "dependents" of the company is a big tell on Italy's work culture In german there's a funny situation as well: The employer is called the "work provider", while the employee is the "work receiver". Thank you, company, for providing me with work.

>In german there's a funny situation as well: The employer is called the "work provider", while the employee is the "work receiver"

Hm in Dutch I'd translate werknemer as 'work taker'... is it very different from that in German?

Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#165

Post by ktosobcy »

th13row wrote: post #150
msm_ wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love EU and everything it stands for (even if the execution is not always perfect). Why do you want to see Europe crashing down?

Unelected bureaucrats who think they are above the citizens, too much reach, too much influence, insistence in regulating every industry and every activity. This can only end in a can a cashless mass-surveillance social credit system dystopia even worse than China. Give it a few years.

Give me a break. Parlimant is elected directly, commission is made of PMs of the member states government, that were also elected. If feels like hearing Brits touting those 'unelected bureaucrats' while at the same time having unelected PM and house of Lords... no voting system is perfect nor the EU is perfect but this is one of the dumbest arguments there. As for policies - they are quite often very pro-citizen and having lived outside the EU for a couple of years I appreciate them even more...

Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#166

Post by qwytw »

tfourb wrote: post #154
roenxi wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we're going to copy the Nordics, someone is going to have to start by translating their laws into English so we know what it is they are actually doing. I don't like arguing based on what they are hypothetically doing and I don't think many of the people pointing at them as an example know either. They're tiny, homogeneous and Norway has obscene oil wealth. It isn't obvious we can copy them piecemeal, even if it d…

Salaries in Germany (and other European countries) are lower than in the US because German citizens receive a lot of benefits through government budgets that US citizens can only dream of. healthcare, essentially free higher education on a level easily comparable to most U.S. universities, better quality primary and secondary education, free or low cost (depending on the state) childcare from age 2-3, comparatively d…

> Salaries in Germany (and other European countries) are lower than in the US because German citizens receive a lot of benefits through government budgets that US citizens can only dream

So all this justifies German employers paying their workers less? I'm not sure how should this make sense. All of those things you've mentioned are great and are financed through taxation paid by the workers...

So just compare pretax salaries? Which are still considerably lower in Germany. ...

Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#167

Post by tfourb »

patrickk wrote: post #109
adrianN wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Health insurance" is not a benefit in any EU country that I know of. Are there any EU countries where health insurance is as messed up as in the US?

In Germany, private health insurance is the norm above a certain salary level (it's not actually mandatory but when you read about it online, makes it seem so). There is a hybrid private-public insurance option below that level. It's common for employers to subsidise the private insurance at least. And no, it's not messed up like in the US, although it's a large expense by European standards/cheap by US standards (th…

Small correction: because contributions to the public health insurance fund are capped at a certain salary level (just shy of 60.000€/year), it would actually be pretty stupid to opt out of the public model just because you earn a lot. Private insurance can be attractive for people in Germany because i.e.

- their are no eligible for public insurance (only impacts a very small number of people, who are in many cases "independently wealthy", i.e. are not actually working)

- have very specific employment structures (most public school teachers benefit from having a private insurance due to certain government benefits paid to them)

- require or want certain benefits not offered by public insurance

- think that because of their special circumstance, private insurance will work out cheaper for them long-term (usually when you have the financial capacity to enter the private system at a very young and healthy age)

Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#168

Post by qwytw »

tfourb wrote: post #159
ExoticPearTree wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Equality is a socialist fairytale and unions is what keeps innovation from happening. All they want is for all workers to earn the same wage because equality and other BS like this, stifle the company from firing people when they're not needed anymore and so on. As an employee you need to be able to earn as much as possible and climb the ladder as high as possible with no impediments to this. And yes, be the next tec…

Unions are the best way known to man that allows the re-distribution of profits from a small upper class (largely anointed by luck and/or heritage) to a broad segment of society. This in turn enables broad segments of society to give their children a decent education, which is the pre-requisite for society-scale innovation and (technological and social) progress. The U.S. has long profited from being able to leverage…

> Unions are the best way known to man that allows the re-distribution of profits from a small upper class

Wealth inequality is still huge in Scandinavia (especially Sweden which is even worse than the US in that regard), Germany and the Benelux (especially when compared to many other European countries which might not have very strong unions..). So unions didn't really help that much with that...

Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#169

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

piva00 wrote: post #148
roenxi wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we're going to copy the Nordics, someone is going to have to start by translating their laws into English so we know what it is they are actually doing. I don't like arguing based on what they are hypothetically doing and I don't think many of the people pointing at them as an example know either. They're tiny, homogeneous and Norway has obscene oil wealth. It isn't obvious we can copy them piecemeal, even if it d…

I live and work in Sweden, even though worker solidarity here is almost at an all-time low it's still quite ingrained in society, it's one of the engines of making this society more trustworthy, less unequal and all the benefits that stems from that. > All Germany's solidarity isn't getting their salaries up to US wages; the money isn't there. Because USA's wages are the massive oddball here, not the standard. And to…

>ASML is in the EU, are you going to say they can't do tech?

My god, if I had a biscuit crumb for every time someone on HN mentioned ASML as an example of European tech dominance, I would have died from obesity several times over. The simple fact that ASML (and sometimes Spotify) is the only name that comes to mind when discussion EU tech dominance, speaks volumes. (I'm European BTW)

Where is EU's iPhone? Or Android? Or Windows? Or Intel? Or AWS? Or Office365? Or Google? Or ChatGPT? Or Xbox? Or Steam? Or Netflix? Or Nvidia? Or Micron? Or AMD?

Or why did Linus Torvalds, Bjarne Stroustrup, Guido van Rossum or Andrej Karpathy move to the US to make their impacts in the tech world instead of staying in their native European countries and doing it from here?

Europe is basically completely absent in terms of raising international champions in SW and HW products and services, especially in the consumer facing market. Our strength is making innovations and start-ups that end up swallowed by US money/entities and relocated across the Atlantic in some Delaware holding where they flourish on US soil.

Go to any tech job in Europe, and the tools you'll be using both HW and SW (client and infrastructure) will mostly be from some US tech giants or SV start-ups. Come home from work and fire up any digital entertainment platform it will most likely also come from the US or Japan or to a smaller degree China.

US's handful of top tech companies outmatch the EU's entire tech sector combined, both in market cap and sheer numbers. It's not even a competition.

>Tech couldn't exist without ASML...

False, more like ASML couldn't exist without US tech. We could be using non-EUV lithography machines from Canon and Nikon, so chip tech would exist just fine, but would probably be stuck around ~10nm level. Not great for bleeding edge tech, but not stone age levels either.

Short story, the only reason ASML won and Canon and Nikon lost, is that US decided to license its domestic EUV tech From Sandia labs to ASML, and denied it to Canon and Nikon, purely because ASML acquired Silicon Valley Group Inc, US's leading lithography supplier at the time, giving ASML a strategic US presence versus their Japanese competitors.

Longer story:

"The basics of EUV were invented in, and owned by, DOE labs (Sandia, Berkeley, and Lawrence) in the 1990s. The chip manufacturers wanted the labs' inventions commercialized, of course, so Intel took the lead on pushing that effort through a public/private partnership called a CRADA (Cooperative R&D Agreement) between the DOE labs and a consortium of private companies. They formed an entity called EUV-LLC to facilitate the CRADA.

Intel was eager to have Canon and Nikon participate in EUV-LLC, along with ASML and SVGL (the sole leading-edge American stepper supplier at the time and also a beneficiary of US taxpayer help). However, the DOE and the larger U.S. government weren't keen on handing U.S. taxpayer-funded research to foreign companies, so there was a lot of back and forth. I know only the sketchiest of details.

The DOE and Congress ended up rejecting Canon and Nikon's membership in EUV-LLC, denying them access to the underlying IP. But they allowed the (Dutch) ASML in. About 3 years later ASML was allowed to buy SVGL and, voilá, the only litho tool supplier that had a license to EUV IP, and the financial and technological backing of the EUV-LLC consortium, was Dutch."[1]

[1] https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/65642319

Re: Companies to publish salary ranges in job adverts under new EU rules

#170

Post by wil421 »

piva00 wrote: post #148
roenxi wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we're going to copy the Nordics, someone is going to have to start by translating their laws into English so we know what it is they are actually doing. I don't like arguing based on what they are hypothetically doing and I don't think many of the people pointing at them as an example know either. They're tiny, homogeneous and Norway has obscene oil wealth. It isn't obvious we can copy them piecemeal, even if it d…

I live and work in Sweden, even though worker solidarity here is almost at an all-time low it's still quite ingrained in society, it's one of the engines of making this society more trustworthy, less unequal and all the benefits that stems from that. > All Germany's solidarity isn't getting their salaries up to US wages; the money isn't there. Because USA's wages are the massive oddball here, not the standard. And to…

Where did get the US has better wages than Sweden? According to my sources they are similar but Sweden is higher, $65k vs $74k.

Some of salaries you hear on HN are insane by US standards and only a few, relatively speaking, offer these kinds of salaries.

https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/media...

https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/media...

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