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Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

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Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#751

Post by ianleighton »

socks wrote: post #742
veb wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say in New Zealand we definitely have them figured out. Every rental needs a heat-pump if there's no fireplace. Landlords will prefer the heat-pumps primarily because it's less maintenance. Apparently 25% of all households in NZ have one: https://www.genesisenergy.co.nz/tips-and-tricks/articles/use... ) you may also be interested in: https://figure.nz/chart/HkvN4YjwyylwL2A4 Ours are exactly the same sort of units…

You just helped me realise (as an Aussie living in Europe) that when some people are saying "air-to-air heat pump" what they mean is what an Aussie or Kiwi would call "reverse cycle air conditioner" - which are extremely common and affordable. The heat pumps I have seen personally in Europe are geothermal, very big, and very expensive.

I think your reverse cycle ac would be an air-to-air heat pump. Air-to-water is more like your heat pump water heater, with the hot water then going through radiators.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#752

Post by Eumenes »

cmui wrote: post #528
Eumenes wrote: post #248

i'm glad to have a wood stove, electrical rates keep rising, and wood is pretty consistent (plus I source some on my own, tons of free firewood if you know where to look) ... unfortuantely it doesnt solve my hot water problem, but one 200 gallon tank of oil lasts me over 1.5 years

Have you looked at the relative cost of wood + fuel oil vs a heat pump. I think you'd be surprised how quickly it pays off.

If anything I'd get a heat pump to supplement my wood stove, but I'd like to have solar first, because the electrical rates are very high and have friends who have installed heat pumps to only trade expensive oil bills for $400-500/month electric bills. I do like the dual purpose with air conditioning. Your product is attractive, way more than the ones I've seen out there, and I think that'll be a good selling point. Best of luck!

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#753

Post by galfarragem »

alangibson wrote: post #719
quirkot wrote: post #633

I've seen other construction related businesses try to go direct and it is extremely difficult. By going direct to the homeowner you are targeting the venn diagram union of "people who are willing & able to do the work themselves" and "people who will pay more" How are you going to build your service network? You say you will "connect them with a contractor to do the actual install." But contractors make their money…

> But contractors make their money on equipment sales, not on labor. This. No competent contractor will install a unit you bought off some website. That will lead to two possibilities: 1) Homeowners try to install it themselves and screw it up 2) Incompetent contractors install it and screw it up The result of both is bad word of mouth/press and reputational damage to the brand.

That is exactly what most people fail to acknowledge: (nowadays) every competent contractor in trades has more work than he can handle. You need him more than he needs you.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#754

Post by hef19898 »

quirkot wrote: post #633

I've seen other construction related businesses try to go direct and it is extremely difficult. By going direct to the homeowner you are targeting the venn diagram union of "people who are willing & able to do the work themselves" and "people who will pay more" How are you going to build your service network? You say you will "connect them with a contractor to do the actual install." But contractors make their money…

Basically the same business model Solar City, and a whole bunch of other PV start-ups, tried and failed with. In this model, you take the capital requiremts, someone has to fund the equipment, and the resource requirements, selling once every twenty year purchases to consumers requires loads of people, combine them together and hope all the hot VC money will allow you to squeeze enough existing companies out to create a comfortable nieche for yourself by the time VC money isn't there anymore...

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#755

Post by importantbrian »

I've seen a lot of heat pump hype lately but it's usually around heating your home, but I live in Florida. Is there any benefit to this for people in warm climates? My understanding is that the cooling part of an AC unit is already a heat pump.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#756

Post by oblio »

blincoln wrote: post #514
dminor wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree on the point of not wanting to end up with a brick due to obsolete software. Note though that heat pumps typically last 10-20 years.

This is extremely disappointing, given their price point. I've seen an oil furnace still running after 50 years with just basic maintenance. Did it cost 2-5 times as much in inflation-adjusted dollars as a heat pump does now? No.

https://www.evergreenenergy.co.uk/heat-pump-guides/how-long-...

I don't see why a heat pump wouldn't run for a long time. I imagine many people want to replace old heat pumps because newer ones are more efficient.

But otherwise this is quite old and widely available tech, it should be possible to replace individual components that break down.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#757

Post by r3trohack3r »

borland wrote: post #727
cmui wrote: post #639

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By going direct to the homeowner you are targeting the venn diagram union of "people who are willing & able to do the work themselves" This is meant to be installed by a professional contractor, not the homeowner. > How are you going to build your service network? Compensate the contractors fairly and act as lead gen. > Who are the decision makers in your target market exactly? Homeowners. Not targeting multiunit r…

> > How are you going to build your service network? > Compensate the contractors fairly and act as lead gen. I used to work at a company which makes security and access control systems (swipe cards, electronic locks, etc). They created a consumer-level system (as opposed to the big Enterprise ones they were known for) and tried to create a distribution model which appears to be how you're thinking about it. The idea…

A flip-side from the consumer perspective.

The company who installed the windows in our house operated this way. They have a network of contractors for installs.

The contractor that showed up was accompanied by their general contractor who managed the relationship with the window company and customer.

The general contractor came with business cards, was friendly, and kicked off a 15 minute conversation where we walked around the house and made a list of everything they could help with later down the road.

The lead for them wasn’t the window install, it was follow up business once they built a relationship. The window install was an ad for them.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#758

Post by bozertron »

mydriasis wrote: post #569
ilamont wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The system should be self contained from the start and must be able to function without a local network & internet. Rural users often have limited or no access to Internet service, yet need technology like this to heat and cool their homes.

Hey, that's me! We wound up getting a pellet stove, super cheap to operate and very efficient so far, but I'd also be open to a heat pump at the right price range. We're some of the few with high quality Internet. Lots of my neighbors have wood burning stoves or pellet burners, because they're so cheap to operate compared to the next possibility, which is propane, a very expensive fossil fuel. Pellets being renewable…

Me too!

Rural and temperate? Great. Rural and cold? Not great.

I have a heat pump that's rated to -30C. The energy benefits fall off a cliff when it gets cold.

Can use as primary in the summer and parts of the shoulder seasons. Useless in the winter from a cost perspective.

I think the direction of the industry is great. Needs some R&D cycles to become a primary for all.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#759

Post by jdmichal »

cmui wrote: post #227
runako wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First -- good luck with this! > Purchasing experience, we'll connect you with a local contractor, arrange financing and help with rebates. Hopefully constructive feedback: I replaced 2 of our residential furnaces within the last few years, in two separate transactions with two different vendors. I can say that this pitch doesn't resonate as an improvement because vendors already make this turnkey. You call a furnace/…

Thanks for the feedback. If you feel comfortable saying, what region are you in? I think where you might start running into friction is if you want a heat pump vs a furnace. There's a lot of variation between local markets in terms of heat pump install competence.

I agree with runako. I suspect that you are going to have a hard time targeting areas where heat pumps are already common for cooling.

I'm in Florida. We got our A/C replaced a few years ago. Got quotes from three companies with varying ranges and the one we chose knocked it out in a (long) day. Including various "side-jobs" such as running a new electric line with a larger gauge, installing a hurricane pad, removing the loopback with the water heater, and lifting the air handler into the attic.

Total cost was under $8k. None of the quotes, including for name-brand units, were above $12k. $18k for an unknown name seems just right out to me.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#760

Post by bkor »

ricardobayes wrote: post #716
ta1243 wrote: post #604

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For reference for international users, 24 kbtu is 7kW, 36 is 10kW and 48 is 14kW I'm not a heatpump export, but if that's continuous output, with an SCOP of say 3.8 (what I had quoted in the UK for an airsource -> water -- UK heating is typically hot water run from a boiler through radiators in each room rather than pumping hot (or cool) air direct to the romm via ducted which seems common in the US, perhaps because…

I hear a lot of horror stories from the UK about this, that people pay upwards of £500 and still cold in their homes. There are a lot of cowboy installers going around but even those who are qualified can't be reached for aftercare/handoff etc. Fiddling with settings at 50p/kWh is not a great experience. On that note I think biopropane will be the solution for Europe.

> I hear a lot of horror stories from the UK about this, that people pay upwards of £500

£500 for what? Total cost for a month? A year? The monthly average of a full year of costs. The monthly average cost thing is common in NL; people often have no clue other than knowing the monthly average cost. And it's often estimated beforehand by the energy company. It's assumed to be correct.

Anyway, people need to check the SCOP instead of figuring out if it is efficient (COP) at a certain temperature.

> On that note I think biopropane will be the solution for Europe.

Oh please no.

On UK, I was in Scotland. I thought the homes in NL are often terrible quality. Scotland was another level. Pretty much no insulation, terrible windows. Really drafty. Yet the media (as a result the public as well) hates the "Insulate Britain" movement.

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