Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

news.ycombinator.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

511–520 of 809 posts

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#511

Post by Melatonic »

dawnerd wrote: post #295
RetpolineDrama wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If it doesn't use the normal wiring people already have it's a hard pass from me. Why? a real smart thermostat can just use the existing wiring for power and then use IP over Wifi or Matter/Thread to communicate. Way better than the crappy wiring in most people's houses for thermostat control.

Because HVAC in theory should outlive most other standards that have come and gone. Its totally fine to built on top of it, but using basic hard wiring to turn on/off is essential - even if just as a fallback. in 20 years the hvac should still be working, but will the wifi spec it shipped with? What about matter/thread?

Theres certainly a middleground between "must use existing old ass 2 wire setups" and "requires fancy always on cloud subscription"

Surely we could come up with a device that might require an electrician to run a few extra wires (or maybe even larger wires or something) and still run perfectly fine offline, for as long as the hardware functions, with some type of integrated manual controller. And of course this device could also have an internet option and an app and wifi for all of the fancy stuff.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#513

Post by cmui »

Melatonic wrote: post #505

Does this REQUIRE the use of a smartphone and the app? Or can it be controlled from the unit itself? Generally I hard pass on any device that does not have at least some basic manual controls itegrated into the unit itself (or an offline dedicated controller perhaps that wires to it). A phone app is great for controlling things away from home or setting up more advanced features like schedules and alarms but especial…

No problem if you don't want to use an app, just use the thermostat. The system runs fine without internet connectivity. What you get with a wifi connection is the thermostat can access signals that increase system efficiency (demand response, weather, TOU rates) and you get remote commands from your smartphone.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#514

Post by blincoln »

dminor wrote: post #347
0xbadcafebee wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I'm gonna invest in a heat pump for the long term, I don't want it committed to any software technology that may be obsolete in 10 years. I want it to use something so dead stupid simple that anything in 50 years can still operate it without a lot of work. The simplest example I can think of is MIME ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIME ). It can be embedded in basically any transport type. It can encode anything y…

I agree on the point of not wanting to end up with a brick due to obsolete software. Note though that heat pumps typically last 10-20 years.

This is extremely disappointing, given their price point.

I've seen an oil furnace still running after 50 years with just basic maintenance. Did it cost 2-5 times as much in inflation-adjusted dollars as a heat pump does now? No.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#516

Post by turtlebits »

dmarlow wrote: post #306
mdasen wrote: post #111

I guess I'm wondering what this offers over calling an HVAC company and having them install a heat pump system. The system seems expensive at $14,000 for a 48k BTU 18 SEER system. It looks like I can get that for $4,000. Is the sleek software and design of your units worth the extra $10,000, especially when I'm not really going to see my air handler frequently? I do like that it monitors CO2 and offers humidification…

Same thought as well. I recently self installed an 18k BTU unit. The lines came pre-charged, but I wanted it to be run exactly to length. For someone to come and do just that part (cut, flare and vacuum/charge the lines) cost me just $150. I got the unit (a pioneer) for under $900. The rest of the world has heat pumps figured out, no need for a tesla-ish version charging a premium. Cost will be the biggest factor for…

The problem with trying to charge a nominal/flat fee is the same for all contractors.

Not all houses are alike, and you'll never know what is inside a wall/attic where a customer wants to install it, or what kind of electrical work will be needed. (might have to run a new 240v line). Dirt work may be required for the exterior condenser.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#517

Post by sokoloff »

verelo wrote: post #460

Chris, great and i love that you're working on this. We need more heatpumps in this world! Any chance there's a solution coming for people with hydronic systems? We have a house in rural Ontario that has in-floor hydronic in the basement and hydronic radiators upstairs too. We'd love to get off propane, but there are virtually zero options without us installing ducts (which due to the German wood-frame design is very…

There are air-to-water heat pumps, provided your emitters are sized such that you can heat your home with flow temps at/under 135°F. (I was able to test the prior winter and turning my aquastat way down and see when the house was no longer able to maintain the desired setpoint. For me, that was at about 9°F and it fell by about 1°F inside for every 2°F outside below that over a single night.)

If you can get by with 135°F (or ideally 130°F) flow, Google for "air to water heat pump" and there's likely a vendor that will sell into Ontario. (Ultimately, I decided against it for economic reasons, mostly because of a monopoly supplier in my area giving me a monopoly quote while not accepting Monopoly money.)

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#518

Post by cmui »

dgoodell wrote: post #495

Having industrial design and a nice webpage complete before there is any hardware at all seems like a major red flag to me. Who is actually going to manufacture this?

I would agree with you if there was major technical risk, but this is a system integration problem. Re manufacturing, there are millions of heat pumps made every year, and an ecosystem of contract manufacturers and thermal parts suppliers.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#519

Post by coryrc »

raisedbyninjas wrote: post #401
coryrc wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You lose about 30% efficiency using "standardized wiring" with an inverter heat pump instead of a communicating thermostat, because running a heat pump at 33% power continuously instead of 100% power 20 minutes of every hour results in a COP about 30% higher.

Why do inverter heat pump need proprietary wiring? Everything I've seen indicates inverter and dual stage heat pumps can use standard wiring.

They don't need it, they just don't get all their rated efficiency, which is much higher than single-speed systems. Single-speed systems commonly have cooling efficiencies around 10-14 SEER, the Gree Sapphire is 38 SEER. If you ran it at only full power, it'd probably only be 30 SEER.

Re: Launch HN: Electric Air (YC W23) – Heat pump sold directly to homeowners

#520

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

cstejerean wrote: post #490
yencabulator wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, at least the ones that agree to work with it. For example, the most reputable HVAC company I can find locally has picked their favorite 1-2 brands and largely only installs those, so they know what they're bound to be repairing later.

They also tend to only install units that you can't buy directly and only quote for total cost not parts and labor so you cannot easily tell just how much they are charging for the labor.

What difference would the breakdown on parts and labor make to you as a prospective client, given that you cannot buy the units directly?
Post reply on HN