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Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat

economist.com

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Re: Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat

#271

Post by yogthos »

jonnycomputer wrote: post #250
tarkin2 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're being disingenuous. Look at the articles mentioned in the quote. "Taiwan Relations Act, the three U.S.-China Joint Communiques, and the Six Assurances". In particular: "The United States would not formally recognize Chinese sovereignty over Taiwan"[1]. So the US supports a "One China policy", "does not support Taiwanese independence" and "does not formally recognize Chinese sovereignty over Taiwan." And it wil…

Yes, the question of self-determination is almost always forgotten.

There can be no question of self determination when US pours billions of dollars into shaping politics in Taiwan.

Re: Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat

#272

Post by yogthos »

rich_sasha wrote: post #262
yogthos wrote: post #31

The elephant in the room is that Taiwan is a Chinese province and Taiwan's legal standing is not in question [1]. This is the position held by the UN, and it's the fundamental basis for having diplomatic relations between US and China per Potsdam Proclamation [2] that was signed 77 years ago between China, the US & the UK. This position has never officially changed. And here's what US State Department says on their o…

Lacking a real executive power, international law is basically a conversational framework in which we phrase diplomacy, which ultimately remains a balance of power. Or more simply, power ultimately always trump international law. Which is to say, the legal position on Taiwan is frankly insignificant compared to the interests of China and the US (not to mention the people of ROC themselves), as either party will end u…

Sure, and if you look at the map it becomes obvious that US cannot beat China by force in their own backyard. So, all US is accomplishing in the long run is to create conditions that may lead to a direct conflict between two nuclear superpowers because US wants to be able to project its power in Asia.

Re: Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat

#273

Post by yogthos »

sct202 wrote: post #74
yogthos wrote: post #31

The elephant in the room is that Taiwan is a Chinese province and Taiwan's legal standing is not in question [1]. This is the position held by the UN, and it's the fundamental basis for having diplomatic relations between US and China per Potsdam Proclamation [2] that was signed 77 years ago between China, the US & the UK. This position has never officially changed. And here's what US State Department says on their o…

The legal arguments on Taiwan are always very complicated, and the Diplomat article you linked to is very careful to specify Republic of China--not China--is the signatory to treaties. It is a very intentional wording as the author of the article is from the Taipei Economic and Cultural Representative Office (embassy) in Japan.

Fact of the matter is that US has official relations with PRC and not ROC which isn't even recognized by the UN. There is no legal basis for treating Taiwan as a country.

Re: Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat

#274

Post by yogthos »

infamia wrote: post #260
yogthos wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US has never been on the right side of history in the past half a century, and US is sure as hell not on the right side of history trying to start a war with China right now. Why should China side with US over Ukraine's territorial integrity as US violates Chinese territorial integrity? Furthermore, your entire position is incoherent here. Seems like when it comes to Taiwan you are supporting separatism, while when i…

> Why should China side with US over Ukraine's territorial integrity as US violates Chinese territorial integrity? I'm asking you and the CCP to stand for Ukraine's territorial integrity and to rebuke Russia. If territorial integrity and international norms are to be respected, shouldn't you and the CCP do that because it is the morale and consistent thing to do? A code of morality is not dependent on what others do,…

First, you might not be aware of this, but vast majority of the world takes a contrary position to the west on the war in Ukraine:

https://ecfr.eu/publication/united-west-divided-from-the-res...

https://www.counterpunch.org/2023/02/27/the-global-south-ref...

https://usrussiaaccord.org/acura-viewpoint-krishen-mehta-the...

https://archive.is/2023.02.23-211202/https://www.nytimes.com...

https://archive.ph/4kbWG

Second, China released a position paper where they make their position on Ukraine pretty clear. I encourage you to read it https://www.fmprc.gov.cn/mfa_eng/zxxx_662805/202302/t2023022...

>I wish for the status quo and peace between China and Taiwan for as long as is practically possible.

Literally the only reason there is tension is because US is interfering in internal affairs of a country half way across the world from it.

Finally, what Russia is doing in Ukraine is literally modelled on what US and NATO did in Yugoslavia. Following the exact same rationale. NATO recognized the independence of the separatist regions and then had them invite NATO to assist them militarily. This is precisely what Russia did. NATO literally established the precedent here.

Re: Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat

#275

Post by yogthos »

postingawayonhn wrote: post #137
yogthos wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US has no business interfering in Taiwan. Period.

The free people of the world have a right to protect themselves from authoritarians and to assist other free people in doing so. That seems like a pretty fundamental moral principle to follow.

One has to be incredibly naive to believe that US is constantly at war killing countless millions of people to protect freedoms. US is an empire that subjugates countries to its will to extract their labour and resources. Here's what US protecting freedoms looks like in practice

https://ia800309.us.archive.org/26/items/fp_Killing_Hope-US_...

https://bylinetimes.com/2021/09/15/up-to-six-million-people-...

Re: Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat

#276

Post by yogthos »

postingawayonhn wrote: post #252
NonEUCitizen wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US supported the dictators Chiang Kai-Shek and Chiang Ching-Kuo when they were oppressing the people of Taiwan. US also supported dictators in South Korea and the Philippines, as well as in Latin America.

From the end of WW2 to the end of the Cold War the US foreign policy was primarily focused on stopping communism. In some cases they supported dictatorial governments because the alternative at the time (at least in their eyes) would have been worse.

Yeah, weird how US always sided with the brutal dictators while USSR sided with the masses of the people in the countries. It's just so hard to say which was on the right side of history.

Re: Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat

#277

Post by yogthos »

midoridensha wrote: post #247
yogthos wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's astounding that you don't understand why international law exists.

It's astounding that you believe international law actually means anything. If it did, Russia wouldn't be invading Ukraine.

Russia invaded Ukraine using the precedent set by NATO in Yugoslavia.

Re: Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat

#278

Post by DennisP »

tablespoon wrote: post #224
DennisP wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Russia is able to withstand the sanctions because they are major exporters of food and oil. China is in the opposite position.

> Exactly. Russia is able to withstand the sanctions because they are major exporters of food and oil. China is in the opposite position. I think you missed my point: there's synergy between the West's two pariahs. Russia can provide the food and oil China needs, and China can supply manufactured goods to Russia (and Africa and all kinds of other places that won't fall in line behind whatever the West wants them to d…

Ah, I did miss that point. There are some practical difficulties for oil at least. Russia doesn't have pipelines that connect all their oil facilities to China; the facilities that do connect to China are pretty high-tech, have depended on western companies for maintenance, and don't have a lot of spare capacity. To get the oil from other regions, they'd have to rely on ships, either from China and Russia or any other countries willing to flout sanctions. (This is according to Peter Zeihan.)

Re: Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat

#279

Post by jonnycomputer »

yogthos wrote: post #271
jonnycomputer wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the question of self-determination is almost always forgotten.

There can be no question of self determination when US pours billions of dollars into shaping politics in Taiwan.

oh, no? then who has the right of determination? you can't strip the right of a people's self-determination just because you don't like who spends money in the country.

you sound like an apologist for fascism

Re: Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat

#280

Post by bena »

epolanski wrote: post #86
bena wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The dominant opinion of the people of China or of the government of China? I would say that the majority of the people of China are much like the majority of the people of any land, they don't directly care about the issue. Someone on the other side of the country in Karamay probably doesn't even think about Taiwan for most of their days. However, according to the government of China, Taiwan is an island occupied by…

> However, according to the government of China, Taiwan is an island occupied by a rogue government, the last remnants of the losing side of a Civil War. I mean, it's not an opinion, it's a fact of how things went.

The people who style themselves the ROC don't feel that way. They would say that mainland China is occupied by an illegal government. These aren't my opinions, these are generally the opinions of the people involved. Which I feel is a fair way to present things.

Personally, the PRC has been the de facto government of China for long enough that the ROC loyalists in Taiwan should accept that the war is lost.

The big question is to what to do about the island of Taiwan. After the end of WWII, it was surrendered to China. If the Chinese Civil War hadn't resumed, Taiwan would be part of China. But the ROC occupies that territory. And they were the China it was surrendered to. But if we accept that the PRC is China, then we do need to consider their position that by being China, they should be all of China. But sometimes, the resolution of a Civil War is that a nation fractures into multiple.

But there isn't a big enough faction on either side of the strait to accept any solution. And even if Taiwan would accept a two state solution, getting China to accept that is a big ask. I think if China ever accepts a two state solution, Taiwan jumps on it. I think even the restorationists in Taiwan would accept that as a way to end the tension.

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