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Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat

economist.com

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Re: Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat

#261

Post by ashwagary »

brazzy wrote: post #257
yogthos wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just like we can assume that Texas or Florida are independant sovereign countries in their own right according to the will of their people. Once DeSantis gets his private army going, I'll remember to cheer for Flordia's freedom and independence https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/02/politics/florida-state-guard-...

Except Florida and Texas have actually been part of the USA for centuries, while Taiwan has never been part of the PRC and has existed as a de facto sovereign country as long as the PRC has. Plus only a clear minority of the people of Texas or Florida actually wants to secede, whereas a large majority of Taiwanese wants to remain an independent country.

Hawaii also has a massive secessionist movement since the original inhabitants never elected to join the US.

Re: Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat

#262

Post by rich_sasha »

yogthos wrote: post #31

The elephant in the room is that Taiwan is a Chinese province and Taiwan's legal standing is not in question [1]. This is the position held by the UN, and it's the fundamental basis for having diplomatic relations between US and China per Potsdam Proclamation [2] that was signed 77 years ago between China, the US & the UK. This position has never officially changed. And here's what US State Department says on their o…

Lacking a real executive power, international law is basically a conversational framework in which we phrase diplomacy, which ultimately remains a balance of power. Or more simply, power ultimately always trump international law.

Which is to say, the legal position on Taiwan is frankly insignificant compared to the interests of China and the US (not to mention the people of ROC themselves), as either party will end up doing whatever they can get away with. They may cherry pick some international law arguments, or make up something, but it's only a talking point either way.

Re: Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat

#263

Post by MrRiddle »

jmclnx wrote: post #3

All they need to do is look at what happened in Hong Kong. If China did not do what they did in Hong Kong, Taiwan may be headed to some kind on unification. Now, they would be crazy to even entertain that thought. This issue lies directly on China and no one else. If I had a say in Taiwan, I would announce it is now a independent Country.

[dead]

Re: Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat

#264

Post by epolanski »

cbHXBY1D wrote: post #209
epolanski wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By an interim, non-elected government, after months of escalating riots.

True. People should read Richard Sakwa on this matter. According to his well-researched 2015 book, Frontline Ukraine, armed insurgents marched around the debating chamber, instructed MPs to not follow the formal investigatory procedure needed for impeachment, and just to "sack" Yanukovych.

I mean, Yanukovich had also left Ukraine at that point anyway.

Re: Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat

#265

Post by epolanski »

jh721 wrote: post #240
epolanski wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what are you debating?

> Hong Kong was leased to Britain till 1997. This is not accurate. The Hong Kong Island and the Kowloon Peninsula were ceded to Britain in perpetuity, not leased.

Oh I didn't know that, I did remember that it was not feasible for Britain to keep HKI and KP after the lease of the NT ended, but I wasn't aware it was ceded in perpetuity.

Re: Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat

#267

Post by tpoacher »

Aperocky wrote: post #65
jmclnx wrote: post #3

All they need to do is look at what happened in Hong Kong. If China did not do what they did in Hong Kong, Taiwan may be headed to some kind on unification. Now, they would be crazy to even entertain that thought. This issue lies directly on China and no one else. If I had a say in Taiwan, I would announce it is now a independent Country.

> I would announce it is now a independent Country. I am disappointed to see HN devolve into armchair general territory. In this specific case, the constitution ruling over Taiwan is the Constitution of Republic of China adopted in 1946 in Nanjing, before the PRC was a thing. In general most of Taiwan does not believe it needs to do anything to "proclaim" their independence, only a tiny minority want to change the co…

If Ukraine is anything to go by, US publications starting to "prompt" us this way now, means something has just changed in the political chessboard, and we're likely only a couple of months away before China is poised to announce its own "special operation".

Re: Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat

#268

Post by brazzy »

tablespoon wrote: post #227
brazzy wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>China prefers Taiwan be a rebellious province rather than an independent country because it strengthens China's claim to the island. I'm pretty sure that the Chinese government is actually scared shitless that Taiwan declaring independence would reinvigorate independence movements in Hong Kong, Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia and probably half a dozen more. A new civil war in China would make WWII look like a minor scuffle…

> I'm pretty sure that the Chinese government is actually scared shitless that Taiwan declaring independence would reinvigorate independence movements in Hong Kong, Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia and probably half a dozen more. Why would they be "scared shitless"? They've demonstrated the ability to crack down hard and defeat those movements. For instance: the Hong Kong protests ended almost immediately once China decided…

A good long look at the history of Chinese civil wars should be enough to scare anyone.

Maybe they could control simultaneous large scale insurrections. But it would be wise not to be overconfident in that regard.

Re: Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat

#269

Post by tarkin2 »

yogthos wrote: post #203
tarkin2 wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US's position is more complex. You're trying to dumb it down to mislead. (You might want to look up defacto if you don't think they have defacto independence from the PRC) If the people of Florida want Russian-backed independence, as the people of Taiwan want US-backed independence then sure, go for it, my friend.

US position is frankly irrelevant. What matters is the international law, the UN position, and the fact that US acknowledges the UN as an institution. US has no unilateral right to interfere in affairs of other countries any more than other countries. >If the people of Florida want Russian-backed independence, as the people of Taiwan want US-backed independence then sure, go for it, my friend. Do you believe even for…

When the US supplies weapons then the US's position is far from irrelevant.

The US, in line with most other countries, doesn't recognise Taiwanese independence. It also doesn't recognise China's sovereignty.

You say the US has no right to interfere with others business.

If you see that someone wants protection and is vulnerable so you have no right to interfere?

If you see someone being killed by a neighbour do you have no right to interfere?

Of course, it could be a lie: that the Taiwanese people want to desolve the status quo and give the PRC complete control.

Have you bothered to find out what the Tiawanese people want? Or has your sychophantic slavery to the PRC ruled that out?

Re: Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat

#270

Post by 0xDEF »

missedthecue wrote: post #16
cm2187 wrote: post #7

What I don't get is that to invade Taiwan, China needs a large amount of ships and cargo planes, both of which seem very vulnerable to modern missiles (as the Russian army found out in Ukraine). Do the chinese have a solution for that?

A naval blockade with sea mines and submarines. Taiwan imports 70% of its food and 100% of its fossil fuels. Taiwan has major political factions that already favor closer ties with China. Put under stress, Taiwan may be more inclined to reunify than most western spectators would like to assume.

>Taiwan has major political factions that already favor closer ties with China

Why do people lie so much on the Internet? There are some Taiwanese boomers who are more interested in removing communist rule in China than in gaining Taiwanese independence. But I doubt that is what you meant with "favor closer ties with China".

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