Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Less than half of California students read or do math at grade level

caaspp-elpac.ets.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

221–230 of 256 posts

Re: Less than half of California students read or do math at grade level

#221

Post by yamtaddle »

WalterBright wrote: post #202
yamtaddle wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When there's no incentive for the teachers and schools to get kids to grade level, they aren't. There are already extensive punishments for failure on this front, and it's a huge part of what schools' attention and focus go toward, especially post-NCLB.

No, there isn't punishment. Teacher pay is entirely based on years of service and what degree they have. Achievement of their students has no affect on it. Teachers can't even be fired. See "Waiting for Superman". (Well, they can be fired, but only for things that have nothing to do with teaching.)

I'm going to be blunt, for the sake of bystanders, because I think HN can suffer sometimes on non-tech topics when we try to all be excessively-nice and it gets hard to sort out what's true because the confidently-wrong and confidently-right all look the same: this is clearly very much not a topic you have expertise on or have studied very deeply, and you're wrong about a lot of it.

> No, there isn't punishment.

Simply wrong.

> Achievement of their students has no affect on it. Teachers can't even be fired.

> (Well, they can be fired, but only for things that have nothing to do with teaching.)

Wrong, even with the modification.

> Teacher pay is entirely based on years of service and what degree they have. Achievement of their students has no affect on it.

This part's true as far as pay goes, short of firing (which, yes, happens). Student achievement, however, can absolutely have an effect on quality of work-life—which courses a teacher is assigned or allowed to choose (this is huge for a lot of teachers), grade- or subject-level leadership positions that can effectively afford greater freedom in the classroom, and on career and pay advancement opportunities. In teaching, career advancement means "leaving the classroom" in practically all cases, which is a real problem, but it doesn't necessarily mean shifting to admin—it can mean moving into curriculum design, subject-area coaching, or other specialist roles that still work closely with students and teachers.

> See "Waiting for Superman".

Yeah, I've seen it.

Re: Less than half of California students read or do math at grade level

#222

Post by yrdmb »

amelius wrote: post #86
ketzo wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tennessee did a version of this, and had to fire a huge number of teachers because they were just straight-up giving their students the answers to state-level test. Not saying incentives are totally the wrong approach, but they're also easily gamed, especially in the hands of people who are already criminally underpaid and overworked.

I think the solution to this problem is rather obvious. (Let other teachers grade the students)

Wouldn't this just make all teachers grade generously since they all are dependent on each other for their bonuses? If I am grading Ms. Summers' class and her bonus is dependent on how I grade, I would be inclined to grade very generously so that she gets her bonus.

Re: Less than half of California students read or do math at grade level

#223

Post by bmmayer1 »

dorchadas wrote: post #67
goatlover wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is your opinion on the NPR Reveal podcast episode about how the prominence of reading recovery instead of phonics has led to 1/3 of children by fourth grade reading at a substandard level?

We need to remember the average adult only reads at a 6th grade level... Not that that's good, but I'd say there's many other factors involved than just the schools (parental involvement, do they read outside school, etc)

This is an awful excuse. The whole purpose of public education is to give students who don't have support at home an education. Passing the buck to parents makes the whole point of public school moot -- if kids with involved parents read and those without don't, why put kids in school at all at that point?

Re: Less than half of California students read or do math at grade level

#225

Post by lostmsu »

r3trohack3r wrote: post #133

Bucketing children by age and not developmental milestones has always confused me. No matter how you slice it, some kids are more advanced in verticals than others (emotional, math, reading, problem solving, etc.) and there aren’t tracks in the U.S. to accommodate that so we end up forcing all these square pegs into round holes - everyone loses.

This might not be as bad as it sounds: bright kids need to learn to study on their own, otherwise they will eventually hit the ceiling when there's no tutor available to raise their level further.

Re: Less than half of California students read or do math at grade level

#226

Post by thelock85 »

WalterBright wrote: post #201
thelock85 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure how this is obvious when there is a teacher shortage almost everywhere. I’d be willing to bet that more often than not students’ exam proctor is not their everyday teacher. Also while this is a solution to the symptom of perverse incentives, it is still part of a bandaid approach. Low-performing schools are already spending weeks and weeks teaching to the test, which is fine for achievement but just a st…

Instead of arguing that it won't work, why not give it a try? What's there to lose?

I’m simply pointing out that it’s not obvious how to implement teachers proctoring other classrooms’ exams in order to prevent the home room teacher from giving out answers for financial benefit. It’s not pragmatic when principals, guidance counselors, other-subject teachers and permanent subs are shoring up massive shortages across the country.

If someone wants to try then go for it. But there are a lot of other well-researched interventions that are hard to implement in classrooms for similar pragmatic reasons. If we are going to ignore facts on the ground, then those would be the obvious ones to me.

> What’s there to lose?

Federal, state and local tax dollars that school principals probably have a better idea on how to spend.

Re: Less than half of California students read or do math at grade level

#227

Post by WalterBright »

thelock85 wrote: post #226
WalterBright wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of arguing that it won't work, why not give it a try? What's there to lose?

I’m simply pointing out that it’s not obvious how to implement teachers proctoring other classrooms’ exams in order to prevent the home room teacher from giving out answers for financial benefit. It’s not pragmatic when principals, guidance counselors, other-subject teachers and permanent subs are shoring up massive shortages across the country. If someone wants to try then go for it. But there are a lot of other wel…

> it’s not obvious how to implement teachers proctoring other classrooms’ exams in order to prevent the home room teacher from giving out answers for financial benefit

A few seconds of thought: "don't give the teachers the test questions beforehand"

> It’s not pragmatic when principals, guidance counselors, other-subject teachers and permanent subs are shoring up massive shortages across the country.

It'll give the teachers a way to make more money, making teaching more attractive

Re: Less than half of California students read or do math at grade level

#228

Post by WalterBright »

yrdmb wrote: post #222
amelius wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the solution to this problem is rather obvious. (Let other teachers grade the students)

Wouldn't this just make all teachers grade generously since they all are dependent on each other for their bonuses? If I am grading Ms. Summers' class and her bonus is dependent on how I grade, I would be inclined to grade very generously so that she gets her bonus.

1. use multiple choice tests which have no ambiguity in grading

2. put a unique number on each test. Pass them out randomly to teachers in the district to grade. They won't know who the student is nor who his teacher is, nor will the teacher know who graded it. I.e. a double-blind system.

3. have administrators grade them, or an outside consultant, etc.

Re: Less than half of California students read or do math at grade level

#229

Post by everforward »

tstrimple wrote: post #193
everforward wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a workable idea, but needs more development. That system incentivizes working at schools where children are already likely to be at grade level, have supportive parents, etc. The best teachers will flock to schools that don't really need additional help. I'd propose to spin that and base it on deltas. Taking a student that was already achieving expectations and is still doing so earns $X. Taking a student that w…

> That system incentivizes working at schools where children are already likely to be at grade level, have supportive parents, etc. The best teachers will flock to schools that don't really need additional help. I feel like that's a problem we already have today. Parents who are motivated to get their child a good education will move to places with good educational outcomes. These parents are already invested in how…

> These parents are already invested in how well their child is doing educationally, so they have better support structures at home which is likely the largest difference in educational attainment.

I do think this is an important part, I'm just not sure how to get there. I think it's at least partly wrapped up in socioeconomics. Good school districts tend to be expensive places to live. That in turn means the parents are more likely to be able to afford supplies, books, maybe a non-working parent, half-days off to see the school play, a stable work schedule, etc. Then compound that with being surrounded by children with similar parents, so peers are also likely pushed to excel.

Contrast that with a single parent (23% of kids live with a single parent) who works hourly on a schedule they don't control, and is floating around the poverty level. Even if they really wanted to, I don't think they could provide the same level of support.

I don't know how we fix that without dramatically changing society. Still, perfect is the enemy of good, and paying teachers bonuses for helping students achieve seems like a good step.

Re: Less than half of California students read or do math at grade level

#230

Post by WalterBright »

ChainOfFools wrote: post #215
WalterBright wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Parents who are motivated to get their child a good education will move to places with good educational outcomes. Yeah, well, it's a big jump going from free to $17,000/year > how to improve low outcome schools to the point where they are an adequate substitute for a poor parent. Give teachers a bonus for each student that achieves at grade level. Let the teachers figure out how to do it.

> Give teachers a bonus for each student that achieves at grade level. Let the teachers figure out how to do it. As someone has already pointed out to you, what the teachers will figure out how to do is game the system in order to produce the appearance of success. Not all of them, not even perhaps a substantial majority. But enough of them will do so that the system becomes warped around reinforcing their behavior r…

> what the teachers will figure out how to do is game the system in order to produce the appearance of success.

They will certainly try. However, bonus systems exist all over the place in the free market, and they work.

The current system is quite thoroughly gamed in the teachers' favor by the unions.

Post reply on HN