Less than half of California students read or do math at grade level • Hacker News Board

Re: Less than half of California students read or do math at grade level

#91

Post by everforward » Wed, Mar 01, 2023, 6:13 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #66

cm2012 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's not much the education system can do here. When you look into educational research its grim - its really really hard to move the needle even a few % on outcomes in a school system, even with large grants and volunteers and special projects. Kids on the bottom half of the bell curve, especially without parental support, are always going to struggle at school.

When there's no incentive for the teachers and schools to get kids to grade level, they aren't. I've proposed before having a bonus to the teacher for every student that reaches grade level at the end of the year.

It's a workable idea, but needs more development. That system incentivizes working at schools where children are already likely to be at grade level, have supportive parents, etc. The best teachers will flock to schools that don't really need additional help.

I'd propose to spin that and base it on deltas. Taking a student that was already achieving expectations and is still doing so earns $X. Taking a student that was not meeting expectations and now is is worth 4*$X or something like that.

It should be worth more to take underachieving students and get them up to expectations than it is to maintain students at an achieving level.

Re: Less than half of California students read or do math at grade level

#92

Post by Retric » Wed, Mar 01, 2023, 6:15 PM UTC

dorchadas wrote: post #76

Retric wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, more interested parents + more money can make a huge difference even if they use the same basic textbooks/standards/etc.

Not even money. How involved are the parents in the child's education. That's generally the number one predictor I found in my years of teaching.

I agree that parents are the most important factor, but lack of money can cause problems even if extra money doesn’t help much. Severely under funded schools close more frequently for things like broken furnaces etc.

Re: Less than half of California students read or do math at grade level

#93

Post by lasermike026 » Wed, Mar 01, 2023, 6:15 PM UTC

We have to cut the crap and get drilling. Common core is a disaster. Get rid of it. We need to build students to be resilient, work collectively and be able to demonstrate applied knowledge. Take a Finnish education system and copy it.

https://www.amazon.com/Leading-High-Performance-School-Syste...

Re: Less than half of California students read or do math at grade level

#94

Post by zozbot234 » Wed, Mar 01, 2023, 6:16 PM UTC

cm2012 wrote: post #84

Scubabear68 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. There are known “good” and “bad” school districts. The known good school districts have better teachers and teaching methods. This is not about the bell curve, it’s about a lot of US schools not actually teaching students successfully.

Copy and pasting from elsewhere in the thread: Some schools being above grade level has nothing to do with teaching methodology, and everything to do with student composition. Smart people who raise their kids to do well in school move to neighborhoods with better schools, which raises the grade levels. Ex: I went to Bronx Science, a specialized high school in NYC where 98% of the students are above grade level and g…

The "good students attract good teachers" factor is also why tracking is a terrible idea. It means that students who have "tracked" lower at any point in their schooling are then stuck with the worst quality teachers and cannot catch up to average standards.

Re: Less than half of California students read or do math at grade level

#95

Post by Ekaros » Wed, Mar 01, 2023, 6:16 PM UTC

bmitc wrote: post #27

fnordpiglet wrote: post #19

Looking at the history this doesn’t seem abnormal, and it hovers around 49%. This implies to me median is determined to be grade level (essentially) and it hasn’t moved materially beyond this point since the data was compiled and the entirely arbitrary definition of “grade level” was declared. Would be interesting to see other states but it wasn’t immediately obvious if a similar dataset exists for anywhere else. Giv…

If it's "normal", isn't the conclusion then that the normal is not good? The threshold is extremely low already, and that only 50% of students are hitting that threshold is concerning to me. It isn't that they aren't capable. It's that the social support structures are not there.

Something like 90% in primary education should in my mind be a goal. But when we get to policies that don't allow repeating classes if needed, there really isn't any clear solution to keep kids on their level.

Re: Less than half of California students read or do math at grade level

#96

Post by xwkd » Wed, Mar 01, 2023, 6:17 PM UTC

cm2012 wrote: post #45

bmitc wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's "normal", isn't the conclusion then that the normal is not good? The threshold is extremely low already, and that only 50% of students are hitting that threshold is concerning to me. It isn't that they aren't capable. It's that the social support structures are not there.

There's not much the education system can do here. When you look into educational research its grim - its really really hard to move the needle even a few % on outcomes in a school system, even with large grants and volunteers and special projects. Kids on the bottom half of the bell curve, especially without parental support, are always going to struggle at school.

Allow me to be an annoying pedant for a moment: Isn't that a bit tautological? The bottom half of the bell curve is below the mean in a normal distribution by definition. There's always going to be a lower half as long as we model statistics.

Re: Less than half of California students read or do math at grade level

#97

Post by Ekaros » Wed, Mar 01, 2023, 6:18 PM UTC

jmathai wrote: post #17

As a California resident, I'm surprised there's no mention of % of ESL (english as a second language) students. There's a very large population of ESL students in California that drag down these statistics as the students catch up. If english isn't your primary language, learning math that is taught in english will also be more difficult.

So why not teach them in their primary language? It is not like big groups are too small... And there is no official language. So mandating that selected number of schools including universities receiving public funding must have sufficient classes and courses in some other language should be entirely possible.

Re: Less than half of California students read or do math at grade level

#98

Post by nikanj » Wed, Mar 01, 2023, 6:20 PM UTC

fatcat500 wrote: post #68

A population of ignorant and illiterate peasants is great for maximizing political capital. They are receptive to propaganda. They are an energetic bloc of voters. They know something is wrong, but are too ineffective to correctly identify the problem, which means politicians will continually entice them with "solutions" that solve nothing but increase the political or financial capital of interested parties. We're h…

Is there no separation between the blue-collar working class and the homeless/hopeless class?

Re: Less than half of California students read or do math at grade level

#99

Post by cm2012 » Wed, Mar 01, 2023, 6:20 PM UTC

xwkd wrote: post #96

cm2012 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's not much the education system can do here. When you look into educational research its grim - its really really hard to move the needle even a few % on outcomes in a school system, even with large grants and volunteers and special projects. Kids on the bottom half of the bell curve, especially without parental support, are always going to struggle at school.

Allow me to be an annoying pedant for a moment: Isn't that a bit tautological? The bottom half of the bell curve is below the mean in a normal distribution by definition. There's always going to be a lower half as long as we model statistics.

Not quite, since its theoretically possible to move the whole bell curve right with improved teaching methodologies, meaning the bottom half could then meet our current reading and math criteria. No one has found a way to do this though.

Re: Less than half of California students read or do math at grade level

#100

Post by HardlyCurious » Wed, Mar 01, 2023, 6:20 PM UTC

listless wrote: post #87

cm2012 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's not much the education system can do here. When you look into educational research its grim - its really really hard to move the needle even a few % on outcomes in a school system, even with large grants and volunteers and special projects. Kids on the bottom half of the bell curve, especially without parental support, are always going to struggle at school.

Malcom Gladwell covers this in Outliers. There is something that can be done, but it has to be done starting in pre-school and continuing through second grade. And that "something" is that you don't get a summer. You learn year round for those first few years. The reason why some kids excel and some don't is almost entirely because they don't get continuing education at home. And past 2nd grade, it's almost irreparab…

The effects of preschool have been studied and showed no benefits after grade 3. Not sure about the year round portion of it, but it seems to me this is a narrative born from intuition and not from evidence.