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Disqualified from a National Web Design Competition for Using GitHub

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Re: Disqualified from a National Web Design Competition for Using GitHub

#191

Post by cxr »

Dalewyn wrote: post #183
cxr wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps you should bone up on your Latin. GitHub qua "template engine website" is "NOT permitted". That's certain. GitHub qua code host? Not only is that, in fact, not stated "in no uncertain terms", but insisting that it's both forbidden and that it's clear that it's forbidden comes across as trying to will your way to truth.

The rule states "... sites that generate HTML ... such as ... GitHub ... are NOT permitted." Read that rule again, specifically "sites /that/ generate HTML" (emphasis mine). You are not permitted to use sites that generate HTML, period. Even if you use a "site that generates HTML" like Github only as a file repository, that is still against the rule. Your argument would be fair if the rule read like "using sites, suc…

I am not quibbling about whether the no-GitHub-whatsoever interpretation is an unreasonable interpretation of what's in the rules. I am specifically raising the issue of the hyperbolic and inappropriate use of the phrase "in no uncertain terms" in what you wrote.

Re: Disqualified from a National Web Design Competition for Using GitHub

#192

Post by richbell »

lelanthran wrote: post #171
richbell wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The rule is "Template engine websites, tools, and sites that generate HTML from text, markdown, or script files ... are NOT permitted." and goes on to mention an inexhaustive list of examples which names Github among others. > That is abundantly clear you cannot use Github. This would be like calling someone ignorant and arrogant because they were browsing hackernews at school and a clueless administrator thought i…

> This would be like calling someone ignorant and arrogant because they were browsing hackernews at school and a clueless administrator thought it was a criminal website. Well if the school specifically forbid Hackernews, and mentioned it by name in the list of forbidden sites ....

"Sorry, the rules clearly state that you can't browse websites that promote hacking or other criminal behaviour, like hackernews. It doesn't matter that HN isn't actually a criminal website, we must always unquestioningly follow rules."

Re: Disqualified from a National Web Design Competition for Using GitHub

#193

Post by Dalewyn »

cxr wrote: post #181
Dalewyn wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know what paraphrasing is? I'll quote rules and other such things verbatim for accuracy, but I'm not going to quote entire paragraphs of some random writing verbatim since it's not worth my time.

You have, ironically, violated HN's rules here. Please do not use quotes for things that are not quotes. Please do not engage in name-calling.

The words "quote", "quotation", "mark", etc. do not appear anywhere within the HN Guidelines[1], to include any rules regarding quotation marks (there aren't any).

To call out someone's behaviour is not name-calling as defined in the HN Guidelines[1]. Did I call the author an idiot or a moron or anything to that effect? No, I called out his behaviour as ignorant and arrogant, and called him a kid because he is a high school student which I presume to be less than 21 years old.

On that note, the HN Guidelines state: "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith."[1]

As such, please interpret "Template engine websites, tools, and sites that generate HTML from text, markdown, or script files, such as Webs, Wix, Weebly, GitHub, Jekyll, and Replit, are NOT permitted." in the strongest way possible: That using Github and other examples named and not named are not permitted.

[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Disqualified from a National Web Design Competition for Using GitHub

#194

Post by richbell »

the_only_law wrote: post #176
LightHugger wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not the lesson, the lesson is not to become someone like the person who disqualified them down the line. People who have rules instead of brains don't really belong in civil society!

Thank god these people and their ardent supporters aren’t cops. Can you imagine if some clown ticketed you for one of those anachronistic or nonsense laws that are still on the books in some places, like the infamous “ice cream” laws.

That's a good parallel to draw. Far too many people believe that the police are always right and you must comply with any demands, no matter how unlawful or nonsensical.

Re: Disqualified from a National Web Design Competition for Using GitHub

#195

Post by FredPret »

antihero wrote: post #137
Dalewyn wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

There are lots of situations in life where you can't "leave for greener pastures", especially when it comes to the laws of the land.

Laws can be changed - and failing that, there are many lands

Re: Disqualified from a National Web Design Competition for Using GitHub

#196

Post by richbell »

ironchest wrote: post #161
richbell wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You really can't get anymore explicit than "sites that generate HTML from text ... such as ... GitHub ... are NOT permitted." > Is excluding Github okay? If you ask me, that question is irrelevant. The contest is about making a website by hand, nothing more and nothing less. This is an artificial environment and situation, and you either accept the rules and play by them or don't accept them and go elsewhere. It's…

it is kind of irrelevant, because we don't know anything about the process that led to GitHub being included on the list. Could be lack of technical knowledge as you pointed out, but could as easily be an admin problem, or any other operational problems with clearing submissions, or something else.

> it is kind of irrelevant, because we don't know anything about the process that led to GitHub being included on the list.

The inclusion of GitHub, as written, is clearly either a mistake or the product of ignorance.

The students revealed that they spoke to the person who'd judged their submission, and that the judge doubled-double that they thought GitHub was a solely a temptation engine.

> We were finally able to talk to our school's CTE(Career and Technology) director and explain our situation. I told her about our website and how we were accused of cheating, even though we provided a public GitHub repo containing the history of the project. She then revealed that she had actually judged our project and explained that it was disqualified for using "GitHub, the templating engine"(Yes, she called GitHub a templating engine). She then pointed me to this rule: ...

https://www.reddit.com/r/webdev/comments/119j8o4/part_2_disq...

Re: Disqualified from a National Web Design Competition for Using GitHub

#197

Post by cxr »

Dalewyn wrote: post #193
cxr wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have, ironically, violated HN's rules here. Please do not use quotes for things that are not quotes. Please do not engage in name-calling.

The words "quote", "quotation", "mark", etc. do not appear anywhere within the HN Guidelines[1], to include any rules regarding quotation marks (there aren't any). To call out someone's behaviour is not name-calling as defined in the HN Guidelines[1]. Did I call the author an idiot or a moron or anything to that effect? No, I called out his behaviour as ignorant and arrogant, and called him a kid because he is a high…

> The words "quote", "quotation", "mark", etc. do not appear anywhere within the HN Guidelines[1], to include any rules regarding quotation marks (there aren't any).

No, but they do appear in the two links I gave—which describe the sort of behavior that HNers are expected to observe, regardless of whether it's written in a mod comment or on a mod-controlled page titled "Hacker News Guidelines".

If you think that's an inappropriate standard, then bring it up before just going ahead and doing it anyway, or leave for greener pastures. You succeed by being knowledgeable, considerate, cooperative, and also knowing where to draw your line in the sand—versus digging in (to defend the use of made up quotes and name-calling).

Re: Disqualified from a National Web Design Competition for Using GitHub

#198

Post by lelanthran »

samb1729 wrote: post #190
lelanthran wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The person who graded their submission is at fault here, How? The competitors who adhere to the rules are necessarily disadvantaged compared to the rule-breakers. How do you now fairly judge a competition when you change the rules after the game has ended? There is no other way to resolve a breaking of a rule other than by disqualification, because if you remove that rule after the game has ended then all the other…

What unfair advantage is gained by using GitHub to store the code? A privately hosted Gitea instance would have accomplished exactly the same thing without technically breaking a rule. I would understand this point if they were leveraging Actions or something, but that isn’t mentioned so I’ll assume that is not the case. Their usage of GitHub does not appear to have been anything more than a convenient repository hos…

> What unfair advantage is gained by using GitHub to store the code? A privately hosted Gitea instance would have accomplished exactly the same thing without technically breaking a rule.

If there was no advantage, then the students looked at the rules and said "Yup, those don't apply to us" and proceeded to break them?

It's a competition!

ALL the rules in competition are more or less artificial; that doesn't mean that competitors should expect to break them with no penalty.

> I would understand this point if they were leveraging Actions or something, but that isn’t mentioned so I’ll assume that is not the case. Their usage of GitHub does not appear to have been anything more than a convenient repository host.

If it gave them no advantage then they shouldn't have risked their entry being disqualified by using github.

It was a pointless risk for no gain, from the way you say it.

Re: Disqualified from a National Web Design Competition for Using GitHub

#199

Post by richbell »

lelanthran wrote: post #160
samb1729 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The students were neither ignorant nor arrogant for interpreting the rules as they did. The person who graded their submission is at fault here, and the students deserve to be told this if they’re reading these comments. Someone who doesn’t know the difference between hosting a git repo and generating a static site with GitHub is unqualified to judge this project. The real lesson for these students is that there are…

> The person who graded their submission is at fault here, How? The competitors who adhere to the rules are necessarily disadvantaged compared to the rule-breakers. How do you now fairly judge a competition when you change the rules after the game has ended? There is no other way to resolve a breaking of a rule other than by disqualification, because if you remove that rule after the game has ended then all the other…

> You're looking at it from the PoV of the rule-breakers, and saying "This is clearly a stupid rule". Look at it from the PoV of those competitors who had to do without github - they are saying "well, it's unfair that those people can win when we had to work harder because we did not use github"

You're right, it isn't fair if students were denied the use of industry-standard tools because of the technical incompetence of the competitions administrators falsely believing GitHub is a website generator. Sure, the students are obviously miffed that they were disqualified, but they were obviously following the spirit of the competition.

I hope this rule is amended and further clarified so that it's fair in the future. As it stands, it's very clear that the rule was written by someone who doesn't know what GitHub is and not by someone who doesn't want version control to be used.

) We were finally able to talk to our school's CTE(Career and Technology) director and explain our situation. I told her about our website and how we were accused of cheating, even though we provided a public GitHub repo containing the history of the project. She then revealed that she had actually judged our project and explained that it was disqualified for using "GitHub, the templating engine"(Yes, she called GitHub a templating engine). She then pointed me to this rule: ...

https://www.reddit.com/r/webdev/comments/119j8o4/part_2_disq...

Re: Disqualified from a National Web Design Competition for Using GitHub

#200

Post by lelanthran »

richbell wrote: post #192
lelanthran wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This would be like calling someone ignorant and arrogant because they were browsing hackernews at school and a clueless administrator thought it was a criminal website. Well if the school specifically forbid Hackernews, and mentioned it by name in the list of forbidden sites ....

"Sorry, the rules clearly state that you can't browse websites that promote hacking or other criminal behaviour, like hackernews. It doesn't matter that HN isn't actually a criminal website, we must always unquestioningly follow rules."

> "Sorry, the rules clearly state that you can't browse websites that promote hacking or other criminal behaviour, like hackernews. It doesn't matter that HN isn't actually a criminal website, we must always unquestioningly follow rules."

It's childish and immature, in a competition, to question the rules only after you have been caught breaking them.

I never said rules should not be questioned, I said that you should question them before agreeing to them, not after you have been caught.

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