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EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

epa.gov

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Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#161

Post by orbz »

akira2501 wrote: post #146
erentz wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do we know it was without being detected? I got the impression somewhere that it was ignored because they frequently are for a while due to lack of sidings of adequate length to stop in.

The length of the siding shouldn't prevent you from using it. It should just require the main track to be signalled stopped for other traffic in either direction while you are occupying it during the set out procedure. If the train is long enough, this could be quite a long time if you have to dump and then rebuild working pressure in the brake system.

There’s also the possibility that mechanical parts will seize up (especially in the case of overheated bearings) and will be unable to get moving again if you stop.

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#162

Post by piva00 »

rootusrootus wrote: post #68
fh973 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed... the EU has a similar network size and there it's less than 100: https://twitter.com/HerrNaumann/status/1626342809438502918 Edit: less than 100 (Entgleisungen).

How much less than 1000 (my German is pretty rusty)? e.g. 900 vs 1100 is not really statistically different, and doesn't suggest a systemic problem. Especially given the heavy focus on shipping for the US rail network versus passengers in the EU. Tracks in the US that are used for passengers are maintained better than shipping-only tracks, for sure.

Entgleisungen would be derailments.

The EU-27 transported 2,927 billion ton-kilometres of rail freight, the US ~2,200 billion ton-kilometres.

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#163

Post by NotYourLawyer »

akira2501 wrote: post #151
sclarisse wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing that protects them is limited liability, as it does many corporations. They can only lose everything the company has, and not more. If you, random HNer, have some holdings of this railroad in your stock portfolio, they cannot come after you for millions. Thus stock ownership is safe for non-billionaires. Bankruptcy, rather — the serious kind — erases all ownership, sells the company off to new owners, and p…

The thing that really protects them is refusal to use anti-trust law to break these large uncompetetive monopolies up. A signal is when these companies begin to engage in massive stock repurchase programs.

Stock buybacks are economically equivalent to paying dividends, but they’re less costly from a tax perspective. Are dividends also to be banned? If so, what is even the purpose of a company, and who would possibly invest in a it knowing that it can’t pay any returns?

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#164

Post by xadhominemx »

treeman79 wrote: post #124
xadhominemx wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They burned off the vinyl chloride because the combustion products are relatively benign, it was much safer to remediation personnel to ignite the chemicals in a controlled burn vs having them work around flammable chemicals for weeks, vinyl chloride is quite volatile and acute exposure to high concentrations of vinyl chloride vapor is dangerous, and they wanted to get everyone back in their homes (and yes, get the r…

https://youtu.be/L1I6eVP8QQk Rivers are filled with something that’s heavier than water. Fish are all dying.

Fish are extremely sensitive and die off all the time from levels of contamination that don’t pose much concern for people.

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#165

Post by piva00 »

fr0sty wrote: post #100
rootusrootus wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much less than 1000 (my German is pretty rusty)? e.g. 900 vs 1100 is not really statistically different, and doesn't suggest a systemic problem. Especially given the heavy focus on shipping for the US rail network versus passengers in the EU. Tracks in the US that are used for passengers are maintained better than shipping-only tracks, for sure.

Some light googling gives me 390B kilometer-tonnes[1] in Europe and 1.6T ton-miles[2] in the US for 2019. So that is 6x the freight movement. The US rail network also >2x longer than Europe[3] (360,000km vs 151,000km). [1] https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php... [2] https://www.statista.com/statistics/198443/us-class-i-freigh... [3] https://www.floridarail.com/news/6-key-differences-between-a.…

I believe this dataset per quarter [0] is more accurate, it adds up to some ~1.8-2b ton-kilometres for the EU-27.

[0] https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#166

Post by pmorici »

bloopernova wrote: post #149
excalibur wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's FEMA's role, but otherwise that's a damn good question. Yes the company that caused the mess should rightly be on the hook for cleaning it up, but there's still a need for federal disaster assistance.

The Ohio governor has not declared it a federal disaster area. This prevents certain aid from being used, but apparently FEMA is helping out. There seems to be a lot of confusion about who asked for what.

That's not what was reported in the news. Sounds more like when the Ohio governor requested federal assistance he was given the cold shoulder.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-admin-turns-down-ohio...

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#167

Post by grouchomarx »

ambicapter wrote: post #106
eppp wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a completely broken system though. These cleanup fees should be paid for during the waste generation. Just being allowed to pollute everything and then paying out the owners and declaring bankruptcy leaving it to the tax system to clean up is nonsensical.

What about collecting taxes on these companies while they're operating and then using that tax money to clean up any messes that may occur? Oh wait.

Sorry that's not how this works. These organizations bring in a few handfuls of middle wage jobs. If they eventually pollute the site and move to Mexico to save $0.11 a unit, that's my successor's problem

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#168

Post by xadhominemx »

throwanem wrote: post #145
xadhominemx wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of the contaminants are carcinogenic, really

> Vinyl chloride is a mutagen having clastogenic effects which affect lymphocyte chromosomal structure.[20][22] Vinyl chloride is a Group 1 human carcinogen posing elevated risks of rare angiosarcoma, brain and lung tumors, and malignant haematopoeitic lymphatic tumors.[23] Chronic exposure leads to common forms of respiratory failure (emphysema, pulmonary fibrosis) and focused hepatotoxicity (hepatomegaly, hepatic f…

Yes, they found elevated rates of some cancers in people who spent their careers in poorly ventilated vinyl chloride production facilities. For the sort of concentrations and durations we’re talking about in East Palestine, it’s not carcinogenic.

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#169

Post by galleywest200 »

linuxftw wrote: post #19

> Identify and clean up contaminated soil and water resources. So, the EPA isn't going to identify which soils and waters were contaminated? This is going to be like a pharmaceutical company running their own safety trials. "Nothing to see here."

The order states that Norfolk is paying for this, but the EPA is supplying the contractors.

> Identify and clean up contaminated soil and water resources.

> Reimburse EPA for cleaning services to be offered to residents and businesses to provide an additional layer of reassurance, which will be conducted by EPA staff and contractors.

> Attend and participate in public meetings at EPA’s request and post information online.

> Pay for EPA’s costs for work performed under this order.

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#170

Post by margalabargala »

adgjlsfhk1 wrote: post #22
kflfpfp wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Name a country with good rail that hasn't nationalized it (hint, you can't).

Japan is well known for its excellent rail system, which is almost entirely privately run.

For European countries your point stands.

If companies in the US and Europe had the same sense of social duty that companies in Japan do, this wouldn't be an issue in the first place, though.

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