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EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

epa.gov

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Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#141

Post by xadhominemx »

Blackthorn wrote: post #123
xadhominemx wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Phosgene also has very low environmental persistence. I think the actual amount of dioxin created from combustion of vinyl chloride monomer at atmospheric pressure is very low. In any event, both were dispersed into the atmosphere at concentrations that pose(d) very little danger to people outside of the temporary evacuation zone.

My friend from East Palestine took a video of the water in a creek that runs outside his house. The water is rainbow like an oil spill. This was yesterday. Whatever they combusted and dispersed, it's very much still there and I sure wouldn't want to be drinking that water.

Probably a biofilm.

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#142

Post by ChickenNugger »

thepasswordis wrote: post #17

I'd like to see the head of the EPA, the transportation secretary, the executive team at NS, and anybody in the Biden administration who was involved in blocking the rail workers from striking move into East Palestine and live there, with their children. Don't want to do that because it isn't safe? Then buy these people all new homes. We can start the bidding at $1M per household. I cannot overstate the fury that I f…

re: [flagged] lol, you can't criticize Democrats on HN. It's verboten.

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#143

Post by Alex3917 »

ncallaway wrote: post #132
joe_the_user wrote: post #122

Why isn't the EPA offering trailers outside of town to any worried residents? News reports indicate that people seem to be being poisoned in their homes and staying because they have no other place to go. Edit: Jeesh, of course I mean "why aren't the Feds overall offering trailers". I get the impression the EPA is currently organizing the remediation but that's a side-issue, darn it.

That seems like something that FEMA would be better prepared to do. I think FEMA should be in the role of protecting the individuals, evacuating people and providing food, water, heating and shelter. EPA should have more focus on directing the cleanup of the area, and making the area safe for residents to return to. And the railroad should be billed every penny of the costs of both.

> That seems like something that FEMA would be better prepared to do.

Given that FEMA is perhaps best known for poisoning people with toxic chemicals, who would really be the audience for this?

https://grist.org/politics/people-are-still-living-in-femas-...

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#144

Post by joe_the_user »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #131
joe_the_user wrote: post #122

Why isn't the EPA offering trailers outside of town to any worried residents? News reports indicate that people seem to be being poisoned in their homes and staying because they have no other place to go. Edit: Jeesh, of course I mean "why aren't the Feds overall offering trailers". I get the impression the EPA is currently organizing the remediation but that's a side-issue, darn it.

Why do you think the EPA has trailers or is responsible for housing people? This seems to be the role of a disaster management organization

Shouldn't it be obvious I'm speaking of the Federal Government generally?

What's more important? Stopping people being harmed or getting agencies functions right?

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#145

Post by throwanem »

xadhominemx wrote: post #140
throwanem wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no one in East Palestine who got sick from this. You're saying this a decade or two early, don't you think? Cancer rates are a trailing indicator. I'm not going to try to address the normalization of deviance implicit in the rest of your comment, because what would be the point?

None of the contaminants are carcinogenic, really

> Vinyl chloride is a mutagen having clastogenic effects which affect lymphocyte chromosomal structure.[20][22] Vinyl chloride is a Group 1 human carcinogen posing elevated risks of rare angiosarcoma, brain and lung tumors, and malignant haematopoeitic lymphatic tumors.[23] Chronic exposure leads to common forms of respiratory failure (emphysema, pulmonary fibrosis) and focused hepatotoxicity (hepatomegaly, hepatic fibrosis). Continuous exposure can cause CNS depression including euphoria and disorientation. Decreased male libido, miscarriage, and birth defects are known major reproductive defects associated with vinyl chloride.

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#146

Post by akira2501 »

erentz wrote: post #99
rootusrootus wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We know the bearing was on fire for 20+ miles before it derailed, and it passed through at least one hotbox detector in that condition without being detected. On average, such detectors are placed every 10-20 miles. The one in East Palestine spotted the problem but it was too late to prevent the derailment. Maybe a start would be to adjust regulation such that detectors need to be placed with higher frequency. ECP is…

Do we know it was without being detected? I got the impression somewhere that it was ignored because they frequently are for a while due to lack of sidings of adequate length to stop in.

The length of the siding shouldn't prevent you from using it. It should just require the main track to be signalled stopped for other traffic in either direction while you are occupying it during the set out procedure. If the train is long enough, this could be quite a long time if you have to dump and then rebuild working pressure in the brake system.

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#147

Post by bawolff »

Blackthorn wrote: post #123
xadhominemx wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Phosgene also has very low environmental persistence. I think the actual amount of dioxin created from combustion of vinyl chloride monomer at atmospheric pressure is very low. In any event, both were dispersed into the atmosphere at concentrations that pose(d) very little danger to people outside of the temporary evacuation zone.

My friend from East Palestine took a video of the water in a creek that runs outside his house. The water is rainbow like an oil spill. This was yesterday. Whatever they combusted and dispersed, it's very much still there and I sure wouldn't want to be drinking that water.

I mean, i imagine that whatever contamination that is, is separate from the combustion products that went into the atmosphere.

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#148

Post by kunwon1 »

joe_the_user wrote: post #122

Why isn't the EPA offering trailers outside of town to any worried residents? News reports indicate that people seem to be being poisoned in their homes and staying because they have no other place to go. Edit: Jeesh, of course I mean "why aren't the Feds overall offering trailers". I get the impression the EPA is currently organizing the remediation but that's a side-issue, darn it.

I have read that the governor of the state isn't requesting much in the way of federal assistance, and hasn't yet declared a state of emergency, which may or may not be a prerequisite for such federal action.

That being said, it seems to me that the entire situation is being used as a political football, which makes things murky. What everyone seems to agree on is that the residents on the ground are not getting the assistance they need.

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#149

Post by bloopernova »

excalibur wrote: post #133
joe_the_user wrote: post #122

Why isn't the EPA offering trailers outside of town to any worried residents? News reports indicate that people seem to be being poisoned in their homes and staying because they have no other place to go. Edit: Jeesh, of course I mean "why aren't the Feds overall offering trailers". I get the impression the EPA is currently organizing the remediation but that's a side-issue, darn it.

That's FEMA's role, but otherwise that's a damn good question. Yes the company that caused the mess should rightly be on the hook for cleaning it up, but there's still a need for federal disaster assistance.

The Ohio governor has not declared it a federal disaster area. This prevents certain aid from being used, but apparently FEMA is helping out.

There seems to be a lot of confusion about who asked for what.

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#150

Post by s1artibartfast »

digdugdirk wrote: post #25
spaceguillotine wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

wait for the civil suits for all the animal die offs for ag industry, and medical bills from exposure... then tell us how cheap it will be. I hope they end up in Jail.

The medical costs alone should be an eye popping number. Its going to be interesting to see the interplay between infrastructure/healthcare/environmental regulations with this completely preventable, entirely foreseeable accident over the coming years.

What medical costs? The town has ~4000 residents. If they pay for several doctors visits and checkups, we are talking about a couple million dollars.

They could cover health insurance for the entire town for a similar cost per year.

Replacing the train is likely to be more expensive.

The real cost will probably be environmental testing and remediation. Even if there isn't an big impact, it will take a lot of money to collect the data to prove it.

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