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EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

epa.gov

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Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#11

Post by spaceguillotine »

xadhominemx wrote: post #7
jmclnx wrote: post #5

Glad to see this, and if Norfolk Southern goes bankrupt, all assets go to the cleanup and high level execs are changed or are forced to pay the difference. Also, with this being in Ohio, I hope people in Ohio realize how valuable the EPA is and stop voting for people who want to cut every Gov Program except for Defense.

I think you’re overestimating the cost of this cleanup by 2 or 3 orders of magnitude. Vinyl chloride is not particularly toxic, has low environmental persistence, and does not bioaccumulate.

wait for the civil suits for all the animal die offs for ag industry, and medical bills from exposure... then tell us how cheap it will be. I hope they end up in Jail.

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#12

Post by sclarisse »

dylan604 wrote: post #3

what kind of protections does bankruptcy afford Norfolk Southern or other corp shenanigans can they pull to avoid having to do anything?

The thing that protects them is limited liability, as it does many corporations. They can only lose everything the company has, and not more. If you, random HNer, have some holdings of this railroad in your stock portfolio, they cannot come after you for millions. Thus stock ownership is safe for non-billionaires.

Bankruptcy, rather — the serious kind — erases all ownership, sells the company off to new owners, and pays outstanding debts with the proceeds, in order of priority. This tends to result in more paid debts than an uncontrolled shutdown; fewer people want to buy a stopped business and it can’t make much money.

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#13

Post by HarryHirsch »

xadhominemx wrote: post #7
jmclnx wrote: post #5

Glad to see this, and if Norfolk Southern goes bankrupt, all assets go to the cleanup and high level execs are changed or are forced to pay the difference. Also, with this being in Ohio, I hope people in Ohio realize how valuable the EPA is and stop voting for people who want to cut every Gov Program except for Defense.

I think you’re overestimating the cost of this cleanup by 2 or 3 orders of magnitude. Vinyl chloride is not particularly toxic, has low environmental persistence, and does not bioaccumulate.

Well, yes. But there was also several tank cars of acrylic ester that were breached and whose contents are now on the way into the groundwater. Anyone whose water is from a private well is not to be envied.

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#14

Post by JamesCoyne »

sp332 wrote: post #6
dylan604 wrote: post #3

what kind of protections does bankruptcy afford Norfolk Southern or other corp shenanigans can they pull to avoid having to do anything?

Well, they could spin off a new company that owns the liability. That sometimes works, although notably courts did not allow Johnson & Johnson to get away with something similar recently. Details https://www.npr.org/2022/09/19/1123567606/johnson-baby-powde... Rejection https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/30/business/johnson-and-johnson-...

Litigator of the year https://twitter.com/AmericanLawyer/status/159510343722973593...

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#15

Post by kflfpfp »

mushbino wrote: post #8
jmclnx wrote: post #5

Glad to see this, and if Norfolk Southern goes bankrupt, all assets go to the cleanup and high level execs are changed or are forced to pay the difference. Also, with this being in Ohio, I hope people in Ohio realize how valuable the EPA is and stop voting for people who want to cut every Gov Program except for Defense.

I'm really hoping the residents and rail workers realize they need to come together for this common cause. Unfortunately, busting the rail strike as both parties did only contributes to this problem in a major way. Nobody is coming to save us. These issues can only be resolved with people coming together in collective action. As a side note, i hope they go bankrupt and we expropriate them. Railroads are too important…

[flagged]

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#16

Post by it_citizen »

jmclnx wrote: post #5

Glad to see this, and if Norfolk Southern goes bankrupt, all assets go to the cleanup and high level execs are changed or are forced to pay the difference. Also, with this being in Ohio, I hope people in Ohio realize how valuable the EPA is and stop voting for people who want to cut every Gov Program except for Defense.

Unfortunately they rarely cut programs immediately. It would be too easy to see the consequences.

Instead:

1) freeze or reduce the budget

2) put incompetent people in charge with crazy mission statements

3) wait a bit for the program to fail and skilled employees to leave

4) point at how inefficient and useless the government program is

5) replace it by private sector and contractors

It is a classic move and not just in the US.

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#17

Post by thepasswordis »

I'd like to see the head of the EPA, the transportation secretary, the executive team at NS, and anybody in the Biden administration who was involved in blocking the rail workers from striking move into East Palestine and live there, with their children.

Don't want to do that because it isn't safe? Then buy these people all new homes. We can start the bidding at $1M per household.

I cannot overstate the fury that I feel watching this unfold. The people living in small midwestern towns, the type of town where I grew up, and where my family lives, are not disposable, and their lives matter exactly as much as the peoples lives who live on Martha's Vinyard, or any other rich enclave.

Can you imagine a tanker load of toxic chemicals spilling into the neighborhood around one of Biden's homes? Or on Mar A Lago? Do you think there would be this much feet dragging about cleaning it up?

It is further demoralizing to watch our President on a tour of Ukraine, giving away tens of billions of dollars to fight a proxy war, when we are having citizens of this country lose their homes to an industrial disaster. No acceptable. If there is money to fund a proxy war, then there is money to make the people in East Palestine whole.

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#18

Post by eppp »

thrashh wrote: post #10
hanniabu wrote: post #4

Based on the fact that there's thousands of superfund sites that are decades old, this probably won't be cleaned up any time soon

Well based on the fact that - we’ve cleaned up 25% of sites in a system that only started in the 80s - the infrastructure bill in 2021 bringing back the superfund cleanup tax on chemical companies that expired in 1995 — at double the rate - and Congress also authorizing an extra $3.5 billion 2 years ago just for cleanups I think it’s too early to be so cynical

This is a completely broken system though. These cleanup fees should be paid for during the waste generation. Just being allowed to pollute everything and then paying out the owners and declaring bankruptcy leaving it to the tax system to clean up is nonsensical.

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#19

Post by linuxftw »

> Identify and clean up contaminated soil and water resources.

So, the EPA isn't going to identify which soils and waters were contaminated? This is going to be like a pharmaceutical company running their own safety trials. "Nothing to see here."

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#20

Post by xadhominemx »

spaceguillotine wrote: post #11
xadhominemx wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you’re overestimating the cost of this cleanup by 2 or 3 orders of magnitude. Vinyl chloride is not particularly toxic, has low environmental persistence, and does not bioaccumulate.

wait for the civil suits for all the animal die offs for ag industry, and medical bills from exposure... then tell us how cheap it will be. I hope they end up in Jail.

Which animal die offs? Like I said, vinyl chloride has very poor environmental and biological persistence. Any die off of livestock that was going to happen would have happened 2 weeks ago.
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