Live data from Hacker News

What is a mathematical structure of conscious experience?

arxiv.org

161–170 of 179 posts

Re: What is a mathematical structure of conscious experience?

#161
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are types without values. That the type is itself a value does not mean that it has values itself. False is a type with no values. Consciousness is not a value. Replace type with concept and value with thing, and we get a rebuttal using the same language. You can also switch the terms, depending on how 'a thing' is interpreted. If you are more familiar with set theory, replace type with proposition, value with…

Nothing is fully defined formally. The most fundamental aspects of reality, and mathematics, are still not founded completely on formal definitions, without resorting to circular reasoning, and attempts to prove things assuming the things that are being proved. Existence isn't well defined. Yet Descartes' famous informal claim "I think, therefore I am" is still a compelling statement that each of us can use to verify…

I concede that the subjective perception of consciousness is a thing, is a thing that I perceive, and that philosophy related to it is socially valuable work. I concede that there is no obviously correct choice of axioms for mathematics or logic. I concede that nothing is fully defined formally in that the formal definition will be of the conception of the concept and not of the thing which the concept might represent. I hold that the adequacy of a concept in representing something is an orthogonal concern to its formalization.

My claim is that while tools to determine if consciousness exists do not presently exist, it is possible that they are discovered, and applied, and that the question of the existence of consciousness is open. Note that for me existence is a fundamentally formal notion. I cannot defend this except on grounds of its anecdotal usefulness because it is akin to an axiom or ground truth.

The notion of consciousness I consider is with respect to its 'actual' existence[1]. Suppose I imagine a circle, and then a square, but believe I imagined at once a round square. That I can consider the notion of 'a round square' or may have had a direct perception of it does not require me to accept its existence. Likewise, I do not need to accept the existence of a unifying singular notion of what might be perceived as consciousnesses. This also does not necessitate I reject it. If consciousness cannot find an agreed upon definition, assertions regarding it lack semantic meaning and cannot be 'reasonably' (waves hands) assigned truth values. If an exact definition is determined with no logical contradictions, I defer to the physical sciences for determining its plausibility.

The notion of conscious hearts was more credible in the past. The idea was that before the role of the heart was understood, a large population could have been convinced that 'the heart is the seat of consciousness', and thus a large population believing they were experiencing something a particular way may have been followed by the falsification of the existence of such a thing. At the time, it was very plausible that it was considered impossible to ascertain whether or not there were thinking hearts. I concede that the notion is not presently credible; for my purposes it is sufficient that it was ever credible.

If you regard existence proofs as being extra-logical, it may not be the case we can find agreement since we will be effectively talking in different languages. Personally, I am very skeptical of the ability of the human mind to find truth informally, which is why I lean on formal notions heavily.

--

1: My favorite essay on this distinction is Quine's (admittedly polemic) "On What There Is". The distinction I consider is slightly different from his in that I am also expressing distrust of direct self-perceptions of the mind's functions.

Re: What is a mathematical structure of conscious experience?

#162
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the "Universe in a nutshell" version overview of neuroscience, I'll plug my own book Journey of the Mind: How Thinking Emerged from Chaos (more on that below) Anil Seth's Being You is a recent one that does a good job of summarizing the most popular theories in consciousness. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/53036979-being-you The Routledge Handbook of Consciousness ( https://www.amazon.com/Routledge-Handbook-…

Thanks for the reply! I have to say, I am quite giddy. When I posted this question, I wasn't expecting to get a reply from an author and researcher on this very topic. I am a software engineer by profession, but this is a topic that has been on the back of my mind for many years. Even when I read popsci books about the universe and the big bang and so on, i felt spiritually unsatisfied because they often do not addre…

Thanks! What you point out, the spiritual dissatisfaction, is one of big challenges for consciousness explanation. How can we ground this magical thing in the seemingly mechanical. How can that be satisfying? It's a tough one. But I didnt think that it would become a pressing one too so quickly with all the new AIs coming up and forcing us to think seriously about this question. What I come away with us we are the universe waking up to reflect on itself through the consciousness, self-awareness, and purpose imbued within us.

Re: What is a mathematical structure of conscious experience?

#163
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the "Universe in a nutshell" version overview of neuroscience, I'll plug my own book Journey of the Mind: How Thinking Emerged from Chaos (more on that below) Anil Seth's Being You is a recent one that does a good job of summarizing the most popular theories in consciousness. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/53036979-being-you The Routledge Handbook of Consciousness ( https://www.amazon.com/Routledge-Handbook-…

Doesn’t your nickname chaitanya mean “consciousness” ?

Also one of my first names :) I am kinda shocked I didnt actually make the connection until you pointed it out. I mean, I've always thought of Chaitanya as meaning enlightenment (one of its other meanings) and it's not like we periodically dwell on the meaning of our names.

Re: What is a mathematical structure of conscious experience?

#164
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but there is no agreed upon definition of what collection of things comprise consciousness Colors, sounds, tastes, smells, feels, emotions that makeup perception, imagination, inner dialog or visualization, dreams, hallucinations, illusions. Or qualia if you want to reference the philosophy of mind literature, where the debate and various positions are well defined and extensively argued.

> Colors, sounds, tastes, smells, feels, emotions that makeup perception, imagination, inner dialog or visualization, dreams, hallucinations, illusions. All of which are things we can explain without any magic. The literature on qualia pretty much has the same problem as the literature on consciousness.

Who said anything about "magic"? That's straw-manning the literature on qualia. I'd like to hear your explanations for our sensations, because I'm not aware of any that actually explains them.

Re: What is a mathematical structure of conscious experience?

#165
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn’t your nickname chaitanya mean “consciousness” ?

Also one of my first names :) I am kinda shocked I didnt actually make the connection until you pointed it out. I mean, I've always thought of Chaitanya as meaning enlightenment (one of its other meanings) and it's not like we periodically dwell on the meaning of our names.

It’s a nice confluence, that words and symbols and meaning sometimes converge!

Re: What is a mathematical structure of conscious experience?

#166
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your viewpoint is one I consistently have to push against. Computation is not necessarily experience. I can't emphasize enough how fundamental understanding this is. It seems some just can't grasp this concept. Would you say a program that echoes to the screen the responses of a hidden human is intelligent? Viewed as a black box, it would certainly seem so. But does it have any internal experience and understanding o…

> This example also shows that the perceived sophistication of the input-output transformation is immaterial No, it doesn't show that, it merely asserts it. Consciousness could be a logical property of some perceptual algorithm, like ordered outputs is a property of a sorting algorithm. > But, there is no essential reason why that should lead to an experience of pain, rather than a sensation similar to color, which g…

> No, it doesn’t show that, it merely asserts it.

I’ve given you an example that proves it.

> Sure there is, because it's approaching the point of causing damage.

There are plenty of damaging processes in the body that produce no pain.

But that’s not even the issue. What I’m interested in is how sensations are produced; it’s not just computation

Re: What is a mathematical structure of conscious experience?

#167
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This example also shows that the perceived sophistication of the input-output transformation is immaterial No, it doesn't show that, it merely asserts it. Consciousness could be a logical property of some perceptual algorithm, like ordered outputs is a property of a sorting algorithm. > But, there is no essential reason why that should lead to an experience of pain, rather than a sensation similar to color, which g…

> No, it doesn’t show that, it merely asserts it. I’ve given you an example that proves it. > Sure there is, because it's approaching the point of causing damage. There are plenty of damaging processes in the body that produce no pain. But that’s not even the issue. What I’m interested in is how sensations are produced; it’s not just computation

> I’ve given you an example that proves it.

Except you didn't. The black box you described does have feelings because the human inside has feelings. The fact that every component of a sentient system doesn't have feelings isn't particularly interesting.

> There are plenty of damaging processes in the body that produce no pain.

Because they didn't need to for fitness purposes.

> What I’m interested in is how sensations are produced;

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2116933119

> it’s not just computation

You don't know that.

Re: What is a mathematical structure of conscious experience?

#168
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always thought consciousness is basically just feedback (like with microphones). Sensing yourself sensing yourself etc.

That's self-awareness. But it doesn't explain qualia like the sensation of the color red.

What I'm saying is different from self awareness. Self awareness could arguably just be having a model of yourself. I'm talking about a sensory feedback loop.

Re: What is a mathematical structure of conscious experience?

#169
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suggest you look into Roger Scruton's interpretation of Wittgenstein's private language argument. I think it might go something like this: You want an explanation for the sensation of the color red? Alright, I'll try, as long as you help me out: what exactly is the sensation of the color red? I need to have a good grasp on what we're talking about here. Can you describe it? It's okay, take your time. FIN

If you're trying to suggest qualia don't exist or don't have anything to do with consciousness, then sure you'll find some people who agree. But it's not a mainstream position. And of course the entire point is that qualia are ineffable. That's part of the definition . It's the feature, not a bug. But if you want to deny that you have conscious sensation then go ahead. ;)

This argument is so empty of meaning it is itself ineffable.

Re: What is a mathematical structure of conscious experience?

#170
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

partially ordered sets / hierarchal structures of entities and relationships

not all graphs can be represented as a poset

True yet most natural ontologies are represented as a poset at the fundamental levels.
Post reply on HN