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What is a mathematical structure of conscious experience?

arxiv.org

141–150 of 179 posts

Re: What is a mathematical structure of conscious experience?

#141
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A phenomena can be defined by a pattern, even if it’s not well defined in a technical sense. And a pattern is a thing. Consciousness is an everyday experience that appears to be reliably shared by billions of entities who communicate about it to each other. And have done so for at least millennia. To use a colloquialism: It’s a thing

There are types without values. That the type is itself a value does not mean that it has values itself. False is a type with no values. Consciousness is not a value. Replace type with concept and value with thing, and we get a rebuttal using the same language. You can also switch the terms, depending on how 'a thing' is interpreted. If you are more familiar with set theory, replace type with proposition, value with…

This commenter understands the importance of definition.

Re: What is a mathematical structure of conscious experience?

#142
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only a thing if you can define it, but there is no agreed upon definition of what collection of things comprise consciousness. We have all the pieces, and we know we have all the pieces (note: this doesn't mean we don't have a lot more to learn, both can be true). There is little controversy over how it all roughly works together. The only real controversy is semantics: what do we mean when we say "consciousness…

> but there is no agreed upon definition of what collection of things comprise consciousness Colors, sounds, tastes, smells, feels, emotions that makeup perception, imagination, inner dialog or visualization, dreams, hallucinations, illusions. Or qualia if you want to reference the philosophy of mind literature, where the debate and various positions are well defined and extensively argued.

> Colors, sounds, tastes, smells, feels, emotions that makeup perception, imagination, inner dialog or visualization, dreams, hallucinations, illusions.

All of which are things we can explain without any magic.

The literature on qualia pretty much has the same problem as the literature on consciousness.

Re: What is a mathematical structure of conscious experience?

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn’t really mean to question the phrase hypothesis, rather that “lacking proof is not proof of lacking”, and why not lay out more form of curious extrapolation if that is after all, why we are here.

Your original claim is that consciousness is a quantum phenomenon. A) We can't even define consciousness, let alone describe it's physical nature. B) Even if it depends on quantum mechanics, it doesn't make it magic or unique to biology. C) It's an extraordinary claim, so back it up, man. I don't care about curious extrapolation, except in science fiction.

One definition of consciousness is: the distinction between self and other.

Re: What is a mathematical structure of conscious experience?

#144
post #44
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consciousness: An Introduction by Susan Blackmore is exactly what you're looking for. Make sure you get the latest edition. https://www.amazon.com/Consciousness-Emily-Troscianko-Susan-... She has another book called Conversations on Consciousness that's basically transcribed interviews with prominent figures that's also worth checking out. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/254499.Conversations_on_...

I can't say how good this book is, but the author has a PhD in parapsychology. This makes me question how prone they are to magical thinking, and also whether I'd want to read what they have to say about this topic. Yes this comment is an ad hominem, and no I have not read the book... All I have is a skeptical hunch that this might not represent "the state of the art" on the topic.

It's understandable why you'd think this but it seems either didn't read much or were selective about her bio. Briefly:

* After spending time in research on parapsychology and the paranormal,[5] her attitude towards the field moved from belief to scepticism.[6][7] In 1987, Blackmore wrote that she had an out-of-body experience shortly after she began running the Oxford University Society for Psychical Research (OUSPR):[8][9]

"Within a few weeks I had not only learned a lot about the occult and the paranormal, but I had an experience that was to have a lasting effect on me—an out-of-body experience (OBE). It happened while I was wide awake, sitting talking to friends. It lasted about three hours and included everything from a typical "astral projection," complete with a silver cord and duplicate body, to free-floating flying, and finally to a mystical experience. It was clear to me that the doctrine of astral projection, with its astral bodies floating about on astral planes, was intellectually unsatisfactory. But to dismiss the experience as "just imagination" would be impossible without being dishonest about how it had felt at the time. It had felt quite real. Everything looked clear and vivid, and I was able to think and speak quite clearly."

In a New Scientist article in 2000, she again wrote of this:

"It was just over thirty years ago that I had the dramatic out-of-body experience that convinced me of the reality of psychic phenomena and launched me on a crusade to show those closed-minded scientists that consciousness could reach beyond the body and that death was not the end. Just a few years of careful experiments changed all that. I found no psychic phenomena—only wishful thinking, self-deception, experimental error and, occasionally, fraud. I became a sceptic.[10][11]"

* She is a Fellow of the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry (formerly CSICOP)[12] and in 1991, was awarded the CSICOP Distinguished Skeptic Award.[4]

* Susan Blackmore has made contributions to the field of memetics.[19] The term meme was coined by Richard Dawkins in his 1976 book The Selfish Gene. In his foreword to Blackmore's book The Meme Machine (1999), Dawkins said, "Any theory deserves to be given its best shot, and that is what Susan Blackmore has given the theory of the meme."[20] Other treatments of memes, that cite Blackmore, can be found in the works of Robert Aunger: The Electric Meme,[21] and Jonathan Whitty: A Memetic Paradigm of Project Management.[22]

This is all from her wikipedia, which is about a one minute read.

As I recall, her consciousness textbook is fairly opinionated but it still gives a fair tour of the mainstream theories. She happens to be an illusionist like Dan Dennett. There's no "woo" in her coverage of the topic.

Re: What is a mathematical structure of conscious experience?

#145
Consider TDVP (Triadic Distinction Vortical Paradigm) from Ed Close (erclosetphysics.com) and Vernon Neppe (vernonneppe.org), based on the work of George Spencer Brown, who invented the Calculus of Indications which encapsulates boolean logic but does so in a profoundly elegant visual grammar. One that dramatically shortens calculation visually.

Distinction: to distinguish anything from anything else. Consciousness: the distinction of self from other. Also has further distinctions of inside the self and the other organized into patterns, and distinctions drawn for negative entropy and spiritual evolution, the basis of all change. Distinctions have three parts, that which is distinguished, that from which it is distinguished, and the consciousness drawing the distinction. This has reality differntiation along the lines of the Perceptual, Conceptual and Existential, and distinctions themselves have variables of Intent, Content and Extent.

Imagine a idealist, unified monism 9-D model of reality that has three main prongs. Other unstable particles teased into existence temporarily by LHC are not very useful whereas normalization based on the characteristics of the free electron when it comes to Space/Time/Consciousness are relevant.

For symbolic representation of Extent: this is Space that has three dimensions and is represented using integers. And then there is Time, which are image events of cause and effect on a timeline, that are represented like a plane, a volume, or that of more other people, and this represented with imaginary numbers. And then there is Consciousness-awareness, complex numbers, the awareness of being, or the distinction of Self from Other as spiritual awareness or life trace, and it too is a plane, a volume, and that of more other people.

For the symmetric resonance of Content we have Mass (subatomic, atomic and the universe), Energy (photonic, electric, magnetic) and also Consciousness-meaningfulness (individual, group and cosmic) aka gimmel, the third form of reality which is not mass or energy.

Primary Consciousness is one thing, but then gimmel, the organizer, is second and mass/energy is third.

For Intent or meaningful information: existential, conceptual and imaginary.

In this model we are all moving towards experiences like what is termed Cosmic Consciousness (omnipresence) in Yoga, especially along the lines of Kriya Yoga as brought forward into the West by Yogananda. Anyway, perhaps a start towards mathematizing consciousness that is compatible with ancient wisdom and modern mathematics.

Re: What is a mathematical structure of conscious experience?

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Muddled minds of men, mincing meaning with more words.

Whenever I watch a western movie there's always this character type who uses much more complicated words and convoluted sentences than his counterparts. On Tvtropes they call it the "Southern-Fried Genius" and "Sesquipedalian Loquaciousness" (Damn I love this website, another lost hour) I always love to imagine how fun an exercise it must be for a writer to invent those dialogues.

As an unexpected consequence of your illadvised and unfortunate mentioning of the cyberspace resource which shall not be named for fear of it corrupting the minds of unsuspecting victims and devouring their temporal currency, I have discovered 'The Thing That Goes "Doink"'.

Re: What is a mathematical structure of conscious experience?

#147
post #74
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You can't say for sure that ChatGPT doesn't experience anything. And I can't say for sure that you do, either. The question rattling around in my brain tonight is - if some, many, people don't develop a theory of mind as young children, how many of the people around me are like this ? Is it just the philosophers? It seems of much more moment than the essence of ChatGPT.

Given how many people in this thread don’t seem to grasp the idea of qualia, and think the hard problem of consciousness to be easy, I’m not entirely unconvinced I’m surrounded by a bunch of imperfect p-zombies.

People without a theory of mind are not p-zombies. They are people who see others as p-zombies.

Given that, I'm not sure how to interpret your comment as it seems to describe an invalid inference.

Re: What is a mathematical structure of conscious experience?

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, you are part of the 90% confusing the hard and soft problem without understanding what is hard about the hard problem. In fact, merely realizing the hard problem of consciousness is one of the first stages that is reached in modern vipassana meditation. The hard problem is not stating "we can't know anything about any internal state", it is about the mere subjective existence of the internal state and not abou…

I was probably unclear. Meant, "we can't know 'others' internal state". We can examine our own, but all we can do is try to express it in language. Someone else hearing our description can only get a vague idea. And vice versa. Each person has their own individual internal subjective perspective, which can't be communicated with 100% clarity or accuracy. Since we can't examine or measure others internal state, we dee…

Or more to the point. In humans, our thoughts arise on their own. We don't think about what we are going to think about. The thoughts just appear. We are going through the day processing stimuli and reacting, thoughts popping into our head and leading us along. Our brain is just on a game loop, processing events. Except in biological humans, instead of math, it's calcium ions and potentials. Just an analog computer.

So lets say in current models', or future, in very large neural nets, that there will not be some internal subjective awareness, just like we have. We've mapped the entire neural network/nervous system, of a nematode worm and translated it into software. The 'software worm' appears to behaves the same as the real worm, so what is that software experiencing?

Re: What is a mathematical structure of conscious experience?

#149
post #50

I can recommend this presentation by Joscha Bach on the subject: Virtualism as a Perspective on Consciousness, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6oekXIQ-LM It honors the richness and complexity of conscious experience and provides a refreshing computational perspective on it.

I would like to learn how to translate relatively high-level ideas like in the presentation you shared (thanks!) to actual equations to code. Are there any good resources that you would recommend (YouTube channels, books, etc.)? They don't have to be consciousness-related but I would prefer to avoid books on modeling, say, mechanical things because they usually end up over-relying on the reader's background, e.g., in physics. I am more interested in learning how to express "novel" ideas in equations and code.

Re: What is a mathematical structure of conscious experience?

#150
post #136

> [W]e assume that the > term ‘aspect’ denotes an instantiated phenomenal property or quale. The set of aspects A(e), > then, comprises the phenomenal properties or qualia which are instantiated in the experience e, > also called the phenomenal states of the experience e. Our question, then, is what it means > that “any set of phenomenal states of a subject at a time is phenomenally unified” > [...] > A promising ans…

Yeah, I think that for one conscious experience e they would like to say not only are there a bunch of qualia involved (the "aspects" of e: A(e)) but that, in Nagel's famous phrase, there is something it is like to be the subject experiencing A(e) in the same instant, over and above the set of qualia A(e) itself.

I agree that "non-conscious qualia" is an incoherent notion, but I'm not convinced this rules out a "phenomenal unity" as you argue - they are positing the unity as "phenomenal" not as the substrate (or medium, as you put it) of qualia, so more than just the raw fact of consciousness is implied.

One point of comparison might be Wittgenstein's famous example of the duck-rabbit - a bistable ambiguous image that can be seen either as a picture of a duck or as a picture of a rabbit. One might assume the qualia associated with looking at the picture are the same whether one is seeing it as a duck or as a rabbit - the same shapes and colours - and yet there is a difference:

> The change of aspect. "But surely you would say the picture is altogether different now!" [...]

> If I saw the duck-rabbit as a rabbit, then I saw: these shapes and colours (I give them in detail) -- and I saw besides something like this: and here I point to a number of different pictures of rabbits [...]

> 'Seeing as ...' is not part of perception. And for that reason it is like seeing and again not like.

Perhaps this un-perceptual yet pervasive and arguably phenomenal unity subsuming the duck-rabbit qualia - that which flips from duck to rabbit and back - is analogous to what the authors intend with their "subsumptive unity thesis".

Congrats on commenting on TFA, btw :) I thought it was an interesting read, though I start to lose my grip on the math around the topology section.

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