Health concerns grow in East Palestine, Ohio, after train derailment • Hacker News Board

Re: Health concerns grow in East Palestine, Ohio, after train derailment

#261

Post by shadowgovt » Tue, Feb 14, 2023, 5:48 PM UTC

qikInNdOutReply wrote: post #216

shadowgovt wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's honestly that there's not much story because it looks worse than it is. Chemicals are counter-intuitive. People don't have a good match for looks-scary to is-scary. I watch the Checmical Safety Board incident report videos from time-to-time. The most common killer in chemical plants? Carbon monoxide: odorless, colorless, tasteless, and simply displaces oxygen. You climb into an enclosed space, have just enough t…

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You say that like I don't live in sight of the plume, friend. I've been volunteered. ;)

I have more concern living in this part of the country about the lead in my pipes than the contents of that cloud.

Re: Health concerns grow in East Palestine, Ohio, after train derailment

#262

Post by RajT88 » Tue, Feb 14, 2023, 5:49 PM UTC

jsonne wrote: post #67

I've been seeing content on Tiktok where even 100 miles away they're seeing small dead fish which is apparently according to the folks making the videos a massive red flag. In general I grow super weary of companies and the government downplaying these sorts of things. It seems to constantly follow the pattern of people saying "It's not that bad" and then only years later do we actually see the horrific health and en…

> It seems to constantly follow the pattern of people saying "It's not that bad" and then only years later do we actually see the horrific health and environmental effects of these sorts of things play out when it's too late for the folks that have been impacted.

I recently learned that smaller versions of this even happen in the Lasalle/Peru area in Illinois with some regularity. It makes the local news, and maybe some Chicago news, but hardly a blip on national news.

And this is people telling me they live miles away from the incident, and are experiencing fuzzy orange snow. It's curious, because this is getting more press coverage, and at the same time the conspiracy wingnuts are claiming the press is covering it up.

Re: Health concerns grow in East Palestine, Ohio, after train derailment

#263

Post by shkkmo » Tue, Feb 14, 2023, 5:49 PM UTC

xadhominemx wrote: post #241

shkkmo wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no language in that link that limits the risks to long term exposure. If you follow the OSHA link on that page, you'll see that the ERPG-3 is 20000 ppm; that's the level at which some people will start facing lethal complications after an hour of exposure. If you're gonna argue that there are no consequences to acute exposure, you gonna have to provide some sources.

20,000 ppm! Do you understand how high that is??

"The levels required for acute exposure risk ate very high" is factually quite different from "there is no risk from acute exposure."

Additionally, an hour is also several orders of magnitude shorter than a week.

I'm not saying that the residents are facing concerning exposure levels, however your attempts to dismiss that concern have been either incorrect or factually lacking. If you are trying to correct misinformation, you need to raise the bar.

Re: Health concerns grow in East Palestine, Ohio, after train derailment

#264

Post by shadowgovt » Tue, Feb 14, 2023, 5:49 PM UTC

qikInNdOutReply wrote: post #208

perihelions wrote: post #7

- "On Sunday, the EPA released a list, written by Norfolk Southern, of the toxic chemicals that were in the derailed cars. In addition to vinyl chloride and butyl acrylate, it mentions ethylhexyl acrylate, which can cause headaches, nausea, and respiratory problems in people exposed to it; as well as isobutylene, which can make people dizzy and drowsy." This is anodyne phrasing that omits the lede, which is that this…

Finally, what can these chemicals react into when in a blaze.

That's extremely well known, which is why the remediation strategy was to intentionally set them on fire.

Re: Health concerns grow in East Palestine, Ohio, after train derailment

#265

Post by kurthr » Tue, Feb 14, 2023, 5:50 PM UTC

qikInNdOutReply wrote: post #208

perihelions wrote: post #7

- "On Sunday, the EPA released a list, written by Norfolk Southern, of the toxic chemicals that were in the derailed cars. In addition to vinyl chloride and butyl acrylate, it mentions ethylhexyl acrylate, which can cause headaches, nausea, and respiratory problems in people exposed to it; as well as isobutylene, which can make people dizzy and drowsy." This is anodyne phrasing that omits the lede, which is that this…

Finally, what can these chemicals react into when in a blaze.

There's a small amount of phosgene, but mostly nothing worse than when they started (which are fairly nasty). Lot's of CO and CO2, but it's the liquid runoff that's more concerning. It'll be a haz-waste site for decades.

Re: Health concerns grow in East Palestine, Ohio, after train derailment

#266

Post by ClumsyPilot » Tue, Feb 14, 2023, 5:50 PM UTC

shadowgovt wrote: post #179

perihelions wrote: post #7

- "On Sunday, the EPA released a list, written by Norfolk Southern, of the toxic chemicals that were in the derailed cars. In addition to vinyl chloride and butyl acrylate, it mentions ethylhexyl acrylate, which can cause headaches, nausea, and respiratory problems in people exposed to it; as well as isobutylene, which can make people dizzy and drowsy." This is anodyne phrasing that omits the lede, which is that this…

In general, there's no particular need to make the list of chemicals public. In the event of emergency, every container is stamped with one or two standard labels indicating the nature of the chemical threat and what firefighters need to do to address it; otherwise, it's as important to people as what's in the tractor-trailer in front of them on the highway. It might be worth having a discussion about the fact that t…

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Re: Health concerns grow in East Palestine, Ohio, after train derailment

#267

Post by slenk » Tue, Feb 14, 2023, 5:51 PM UTC

Workaccount2 wrote: post #248

flavius29663 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how do you explain the dead fish, chickens, and people with rashes etc.?

Because the accident released a ton of nasty chemicals in one spot. However they are pretty volatile and naturally dissipate. If you see recent pictures from the crash site, nobody is wearing PPE and the EPA has deemed the area as safe to be in.

EPA also said the dust from the towers collapsing on 9/11 was safe.

Re: Health concerns grow in East Palestine, Ohio, after train derailment

#268

Post by JumpCrisscross » Tue, Feb 14, 2023, 5:51 PM UTC

jakelazaroff wrote: post #257

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> should be a giant picture of the mushroom cloud on their front page to reflect the severity (potential or real) of the situation It was front page on Bloomberg. I admit I didn’t click on it. To the degree this is of urgent national concern, it’s in a rail safety bill we have months to debate.

Not sure when you checked, but right now it's literally nowhere to be found on Bloomberg. I count three stories on shooting down UFOs, though, and one on comedians finding side hustles as babysitters.

> when you checked, but right now it's literally nowhere to be found

When this happened. Nobody clicked on it so it fell off. (I’m still failing to see why this is a national tragedy requiring minute to minute updates.)

Re: Health concerns grow in East Palestine, Ohio, after train derailment

#269

Post by WheatMillington » Tue, Feb 14, 2023, 5:52 PM UTC

anotherman554 wrote: post #165

jsonne wrote: post #67

I've been seeing content on Tiktok where even 100 miles away they're seeing small dead fish which is apparently according to the folks making the videos a massive red flag. In general I grow super weary of companies and the government downplaying these sorts of things. It seems to constantly follow the pattern of people saying "It's not that bad" and then only years later do we actually see the horrific health and en…

"I've been seeing content on Tiktok where even 100 miles away they're seeing small dead fish which is apparently according to the folks making the videos a massive red flag." I wouldn't bother watching a Tiktok video unless the video maker is an environmental professional. Otherwise this is just the blind leading the blind. Here's a legal definition of environmental professional used by developers when they do a envi…

"hey look, here's a bunch of dead fish that weren't here yesterday"

"show me your degree"

Re: Health concerns grow in East Palestine, Ohio, after train derailment

#270

Post by shadowgovt » Tue, Feb 14, 2023, 5:52 PM UTC

xadhominemx wrote: post #247

cycomanic wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Don’t chide me. Parent comment is ridiculous and harmful fearmongering and hyperbole. Read your own link - there is no mention of harm from acute exposure and environmental an biological persistence is very low. Reading the Wikipedia link it's not so clear if only continuous exposure elevates cancer risk. However it also lists significant acute effects: > Prior to 1974, workers were commonly exposed to 1,000 ppm vi…

There were no severe acute effects - there were no hospitalizations, the vast majority of the vinyl chloride was intentionally burned, and the little that remains has very low environmental or biological persistence.

As is so often the case, people who fearmonger about what could happen fail to notice that the medical establishment keeps quite good records on what is happening.

We'd know about the acute effects by now from hospitalization, and we generally know about the chronic effects in the environment because this isn't even the first vinyl chloride spill.

Is Paulsboro, NJ currently a cancer hotbed?