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Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

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Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#331

Post by albrewer »

wrldos wrote: post #312
albrewer wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nothing any OS vendor or browser vendor has done in the last decade has been a user-focused positive experience. I mean, we got Rust out of the deal.

Ah Rust. I've written a few thousand lines. Nothing major. It feels like it's got the same personality as C++. You know a shit hot weapon that fires the world's most powerful missiles but at the same time makes embarrassing fart noises. I mean it's really good but I spend a lot of time defending the fart noises rather than firing the missiles.

> I spend a lot of time defending the fart noises rather than firing the missiles

My experience with it is that there is learning cliff to scale, rather than a gradual on-ramp like Python. The people complaining about the fart noises are complaining the cliff is too hard.

From my perspective near the bottom of the cliff, the people that grok the language tend to churn out things with a speed and quality I don't see elsewhere.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#332

Post by timbit42 »

Neil44 wrote: post #92

I think it's rediculous how much Windows tries to scare you away from using not-edge and then constantly tries to scare you into switching back (plus using Bing). It's no wonder their numbers are up.

If they did any less, they would fall further behind Google's scare tactics.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#334

Post by timbit42 »

pipeline_peak wrote: post #281

Does Mozilla still work on modern browsers anymore? Or do they just update the ui of their aging one and write long winded papers with fancy stats about how many average users know how to install chrome.

Well, they rewrote their engine a few years ago.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#335

Post by GeekyBear »

mike_hearn wrote: post #319
GeekyBear wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nothing stops you executing arbitrary code on iOS Nothing except the App Store review process? We already have tech sites warning Android users to beware of apps inside the Play Store, because Google has been unable to block Android apps from downloading malicious code and executing it on a regular basis. If you're happy with that state of affairs, by all means, buy an Android device.

The point being made by the cited article is that a tiny interpreter that activates days or weeks after an app goes live can't be detected by any app store review process. You have no idea how many such droppers are active in the iOS App Store because only Apple can look for them, and nobody knows if they do or to what extent they do. That's why both platforms also use a sandbox. The dropper still needs to work withi…

> The point being made by the cited article is that a tiny interpreter that activates days or weeks after an app goes live can't be detected by any app store review process. You have no idea how many such droppers are active in the iOS App Store because only Apple can look for them, and nobody knows if they do or to what extent they do.

The point being that Apple doesn't allow information downloaded from random places to be executed as code in third party apps at all. This is literally the reason for the Webkit only policy.

Google does allow it, and they (very predictably) have no way to know if that code will be malicious or not.

Which is why Ars had to warn Android users that they had to be wary of apps downloaded from the Play Store.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#336

Post by em-bee »

hardware2win wrote: post #324
em-bee wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

depends how much your users matter to you. if a browser[1] lags behind on a feature, you should avoid using that feature on a production website, or provide a gracefull fallback. but by no means should you redirect the users to a browser that supports that feature. [1] i am only counting major modern browsers here: chrome, edge, firefox, safari. you are welcome to support more, but these at a minimum.

If I have 20% FF users and 70% chromium users, then I shouldnt deploy a feature which will serve those 70% and wait who knows how long till FF catches up? Wtf.

you are willing to anger 20% of your userbase? you can do whatever you want, just don't expect everyone to go along. but if i run a business and my revenue depends on my browser users, i'd be very hesitant at loosing even 5% of them, let alone 20%.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#337

Post by boomboomsubban »

krono wrote: post #329
boomboomsubban wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone asked you "hey we want to promote you to permanent CEO. It'll be more work, you'll be forced to make unpopular decisions that will lead to rampant criticism, and we'll cut your salary" would you accept?

That's not what happened here at all though. She has been a major controlling and accountable factor throughout both Mozilla entities' existence, except whenever those controversial or risky decisions were going to be executed she has repeatedly ensured there was someone else to take the accountability part - only to take it back later during better times. 2003 Mozilla Foundation was founded - Mozilla Foundation Pres…

Yes she has always been an executive, I'm not denying that. Becoming the CEO in spring 2020 was hardly a desirable position to take.

>she has repeatedly ensured there was someone else to take the accountability part - only to take it back later during better times

This seems unfair. She was always an executive. She seemed to step down after 0, though I'm not sure if they're related events. She took some of the accountability for 1. And 2 is a windfall that she gets very little credit for, you yourself dismissed any revenue gains as part of her accomplishments.

>Quite risky considering Google's current predicament.

The search deal is how Mozilla has been funded for at least fifteen years. Maybe that decision will someday bite them, but it's gotten them billions to build Firefox in that time.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#338

Post by the_other »

oblio wrote: post #156
the_other wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s only iOS/iPadOS that Apple does this with. And iOS makes up 18% of web traffic. That’s a lot, but it means 82% can use the browser they want at any time. Chrome makes up 80-odd percent of all other traffic, so the stats overall look like: Chrome: 65.6% iOS Safari: 18% All others: 16.4% Personally, I’m more concerned about Chrome than iOS.

> And iOS makes up 18% of web traffic. That’s a lot, but it means 82% can use the browser they want at any time. The hard truth is that 18% of traffic is probably 50% of the money. In developed countries it's probably 75%-80% of the money.

Don't move the goalposts.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#339

Post by bombolo »

msh wrote: post #170
saurik wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be cool... except that Apple in fact approves intrusive monitoring apps--hell: they even have an Enterprise program that lets companies build apps for their employees that don't require App Store approval!--and then makes it so that not only can they be installed but the device is so locked down that you can't tamper with them, via Mobile Device Management. https://developer.apple.com/programs/enterprise/

Apple still need to approve the organisations use of that program and provide certificates, which like in the facebook case can be revoked. There are also two different tiers of MDM in the apple enterprise program. If its a bring your own device the device cannot be locked down to not let the users remove applications. It will also sevely limit the kind of information the MDM solution cant get out of the devices. The…

Yes.

My company iphone when I first turned it on warned me that whatever I did on it was being monitored by my employer.

It's by design from apple.

I of course put it in a drawer and forgot about it.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#340

Post by bombolo »

Devasta wrote: post #191
bombolo wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think suddenly iphones will come out of the box with competing app stores? What made this strange thought pop into your head?

I think they'll visit sites and instead of being recommended to install an app, they'll be recommended to install an app with a redirection to a different app store. Apple takes a huge cut of the money spent on the app store, and everyone will have a huge incentive to move users to different stores if they can. This isn't difficult to understand if you thought about it for more than a minute.

Ok, and then it won't work unless they explicitly authorize a new app store to be installed.

Android supports it, but it's not just 1 click from a browser to get a new app store.

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