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Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

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Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#161

Post by izacus »

erik wrote: post #153
izacus wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean Google will deliver a better browser than what currently iOS users have to the point that iOS users will decide to move away from the default set in their OS... and Apple won't be competent enough to compete? Because that's the only scenario where that happens and it's plausible - the exact scenario we were in with IE6 where Microsoft refused to provide a better browser and keep up with then new and much bet…

> You mean Google will deliver a better browser than what currently iOS users have to the point that iOS users will decide to move away from the default No, I mean that Google will use their search monopoly, along with their dominant position across other product areas to undercut the market share of any competing browser. Any merit Chrome has is dwarfed by the strength of Google’s ability to push it on users. I have…

Please provide any proof that Google has a greater strength of pushing their browser to iOS users than Apple, the owner of the platform which sets Safari as default, sets Safari as default link handler, sets Safari icon on the preinstall and requires several steps, including creation of AppStore account, to even switch away.

Please, provide ANY proof, that Google has this crazy amazing power against the company that owns a platform and that easily caused a tank in Meta revenue by just slightly flexing the power on that platform.

And after that, please provide ANY proof that that megacorporation, richer and more competent than Google, cannot provide a browser that could even remotely compete with better user experience on the platform they themselves own.

Because what you're claiming is pretty crock that has no basis in reality or history.

Edit: I said PROOF, not downvotes ;P

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#162

Post by atahanacar »

Dalewyn wrote: post #32
bitcharmer wrote: post #6

I do a lot of systems engineering-level work on Linux and was surprised to see this title. The paper talks about how corporations behind commercial operating systems exploit their position and suppress user choice and use other shady tactics. The title of this paper is a bit inaccurate it should at least say "... commercial operating systems".

I recall a moment in history when ffmpeg had some infighting and some dinguses forked off, followed by Ubuntu moving packages over from ffmpeg to said fork in its repos because the package maintainer was one of the dinguses. So no, Linux is not innocent of the crime of corralling users towards its own interests. EDIT: Was the distro Debian? It's so long ago my memory is foggy, but it was one of the two.

There is a difference between "not allowing any choice" and "changing packages in the default repository".

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#163

Post by rezonant »

kolinko wrote: post #57
politelemon wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Platform abuse is still not acceptable and should not be justified. For people stuck in that ecosystem the lack of choice is 100%, relativity to global traffic is irrelevant.

Nobody is stuck in the ecosystem. You can change the platform at any time. And for me, I feel having more choice on iPhone compared to Android. With android I would need to limit the apps that I install because of potential security flaws. iOS wins all the security rankings (e.g. https://nordvpn.com/blog/ios-vs-android-security/ ), and it’s closely related to its lockin model.

You can change phone platforms at any time you want, by buying a new phone for somewhere in the range of $500-$1000 US? And then doing what with the old phone? Selling it?

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#164

Post by GeekyBear »

loup-vaillant wrote: post #61
lovich wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>...(or better yet, Firefox Nightly) ... I think this is some of the disconnect between users on this site who don't understand why people would possibly actively choose iOS even with the lockin. Most people do not want to use a product that is constantly updating and adding features in that are going to be taken out shortly, for something as basic nowadays as web browsing. If you're on the cool new technology people…

Excuse me, your conclusion doesn't seem to follow from your premises. I mean, "Please OS vendor I want something simple. That hidden `sideload` option is complicated, please lock down my machine." Like, seriously? No one's that stupid. Sure most people want a decent, clear default option, but no one want that to be the only option. At least not for themselves. Because for some reason I see many people arguing that ot…

> please lock down my machine

The restriction is against programs that can download and execute code from random places on the internet, and you only need to look at a family of Android malware that Google has been unable to keep out of the Play Store to see why.

>Known as Joker, this family of malicious apps has been attacking Android users since late 2016 and more recently has become one of the most common Android threats.

One of the keys to Joker’s success is its roundabout way of attack. The apps are knockoffs of legitimate apps and, when downloaded from Play or a different market, contain no malicious code other than a “dropper.” After a delay of hours or even days, the dropper, which is heavily obfuscated and contains just a few lines of code, downloads a malicious component and drops it into the app.

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2020/09/joker...

Apple requires all executable code to go through the App Store's vetting process. Apps that download code to be executed have never been allowed, which is why you have the Webkit restriction.

Webkit can download and execute code. Your app cannot.

The article's conclusion that users need to be wary of apps downloaded from inside Google's walled garden should be all the warning you need about the danger of allowing random apps to download and execute code.

>With malicious apps infiltrating Play on a regular, often weekly, basis, there’s currently little indication the malicious Android app scourge will be abated. That means it’s up to individual end users to steer clear of apps like Joker. The best advice is to be extremely conservative in the apps that get installed in the first place. A good guiding principle is to choose apps that serve a true purpose and, when possible, choose developers who are known entities. Installed apps that haven’t been used in the past month should be removed unless there’s a good reason to keep them around.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#165

Post by ddevault »

Wow, I don't think anyone who commented here actually read anything in the paper. I strongly agree that Mozilla makes constant mis-steps and that the scope of web browsers is hugely problematic, but to dismiss anything they say outright over those concerns is very immature of the readers commenting here. Start from page 38 if you want to quickly get an idea of what Mozilla is complaining about here -- and they're goddamn right to complain about this.

I haven't seen such a poor discussion on HN in a long time.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#166

Post by atahanacar »

Dalewyn wrote: post #25

I'll give Mozilla market share again when they give me decent software again. Until then, they can RIP in pieces as they continue to bitch while not doing anything useful. Also worth noting that Chrome flies right in the face of this essay anyway. The only OS Chrome can't nom is iOS by sheer virtue of Apple mandates that Microsoft once got burned for.

This comment reads like it was written by someone who has never used Firefox in the last 5 years.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#167

Post by 867-5309 »

mschuster91 wrote: post #46
nhchris wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many people choose a browser, compared to those that use whatever the OS defaults to/pushes on them?

Microsoft Edge's main purpose is to download Chrome.

Windows now ships with wget or curl (can't remember which) so there's no longer any need to use its browser!

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#168

Post by medo-bear »

favaq wrote: post #149
medo-bear wrote: post #63

i think mobile users are unaware how good firefox+ublock origin is. i constantly get bombarded by disgusting adds while browsing news portals, cooking recipes, etc. imagine reading about some great cooking ideas and midway through you see an advertisement for "revolutionary medication for foot fungus" with before and after pictures to show. and yes this happens even in "private" tabs. if anything mozilla should give…

Uh? All browsers besides chrome come with ad blocking capabilities, some of them built-in. I use safari with adguard on my iphone and I don't see ads ever either. I do a lot of web browsing on my iphone and if I couldn't block ads I wouldn't have bought one.

til. i have never owned an iphone but my family members do and always complain about ads. from what i see this could be a good tool for them. thank you

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#169

Post by rezonant »

izacus wrote: post #134
deafpolygon wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was with up up until your statement: > Basically, if you want to have choice in a browser, don't use Apple products or a Microsoft OS . I get the "Apple products" bit - Apple famously refuses to allow you to install your own browser engine under the hood on iOS . But Microsoft? Can you qualify that with some concrete examples?

Microsoft somehow keeps "accidentally" resetting my default browser (they love to do that on quarterly updates", they just threw an Edge icon on my desktop that reappears on every reboot and their default browser choice dialog is harassing you really hard to avoid changing the default away from Edge. They're doing a huge amount of dark pattern stuff to avoid people from using other browsers these days.

I remember this happening to me I think 2 times back in the early days of Windows 10 and the initial push for Edge after getting rid of Internet Explorer. And yeah, they shouldn't do that.

But since then, I've used Windows 10 and now use Windows 11 on multiple devices, and in my immediate friends and family they all use it too, and this has not happened at all.

Re: Browsers are essential and how operating systems are holding them back (2022) [pdf] (2022)

#170

Post by msh »

saurik wrote: post #155
msh wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can think of one good case for not allowing sideloading of unverified apps. If iOS only allows apple approved apps a employer/school cannot force me to install a intrusive monitoring app on a iphone/ipad.

That would be cool... except that Apple in fact approves intrusive monitoring apps--hell: they even have an Enterprise program that lets companies build apps for their employees that don't require App Store approval!--and then makes it so that not only can they be installed but the device is so locked down that you can't tamper with them, via Mobile Device Management. https://developer.apple.com/programs/enterprise/

Apple still need to approve the organisations use of that program and provide certificates, which like in the facebook case can be revoked.

There are also two different tiers of MDM in the apple enterprise program. If its a bring your own device the device cannot be locked down to not let the users remove applications. It will also sevely limit the kind of information the MDM solution cant get out of the devices. These things can only be enabled on corporation purchased devices.

There is a good overview here: https://www.apple.com/hk/en/iphone/business/docs/iOS_Enterpr...

But maybe I am wrong, do you have examples of intrusive monitoring solutions that can be deployed (without exploits) on iOS?

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